:brexit: Brexit - The Ramifications

Unlikely. Parliament is not overburdened with Pro Leave politicians, which is a problem in and of itself. With the likes of Chuka, Cleggy and Cable still screaming about the result, I don’t think that they’d help.

What is clear is that the state of Brexit is entirely a Conservative created problem, and the buck does not stop with Cameron. In calling Article 50 when she did, Theresa May won the applause of the Conservative Party Conference it was designed for, but utterly fucked our negotiating hand by setting the date in stone, a mistake she has repeated with her attempt to set the date in stone.

Something i believe everyone can agree on.

Not exactly looking out for the Country with that decision, was she.

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The sensible thing to have done is to prepare for all eventualities in advance. Two years to either come up with a deal or be ready for life without it.

Cameron never even bothered planning for it. He was of the opinion that his scare tactics, which let’s not forget, has perhaps mortally injured the reputations of institutions that are supposed to be impartial, would win the day. The Bank of England and the Treasury both came out batting for Remain.

May is a bin bag being thrown about on political winds she created herself. Far from being strong and stable, this weak leader turned fear of losing her own position into a trump card for our European opponents. They knew that May was only ever half-hearted. The election, which she counted on to strengthen her position, has mortally wounded her and the entire country in the process.

I’d have difficulty remembering a politician that so consistently achieved the opposite of what they desired, except we’ve had Blair, Brown, Clegg to gaze on these past few decades.

Stooping to thinly veiled insults now Pap?

So has the Eire PM banjoed the possibility of a deal or will the plucky DUP save the day for their Tory paymasters

Can’t see it myself…

FFS @pap

I was trying to create some common ground, but by the second paragraph you couldn’t help yourself. Stop with the constant “they said”.

The sensible thing to have done is to prepare for all eventualities in advance. Two years to either come up with a deal or be ready for life without it.

The sensible thing to do would’ve been to negotiate the exit before triggering article 50(not a problem, according to the man that wrote article 50).

Cameron never even bothered planning for it. He was of the opinion that his scare tactics, which let’s not forget, has perhaps mortally injured the reputations of institutions that are supposed to be impartial, would win the day. The Bank of England and the Treasury both came out batting for Remain.

You believe that. Really?

May is a bin bag being thrown about on political winds she created herself. Far from being strong and stable, this weak leader turned fear of losing her own position into a trump card for our European opponents. They knew that May was only ever half-hearted. The election, which she counted on to strengthen her position, has mortally wounded her and the entire country in the process.

I like thinking of May like that. Your first and last sentences are spot on, but it’s the rabid “bonfire of regulations” lot in her own party that have got their wish, not the EU.

I’d have difficulty remembering a politician that so consistently achieved the opposite of what they desired, except we’ve had Blair, Brown, Clegg to gaze on these past few decades.

Oh good, common ground again :lou_lol:

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On the most pressing issue raised by your post, yeah, we know so.

The Treasury told us we’d face an immediate recession in the event of a Leave vote, as businesses slung their hooks to more attractive destinations. That it was false is only part of the issue. It was the forecasts as article of faith that did the damage, along with the perceived partisan route it took. Same thing with the supposedly independent BoE.

I think Britons have a right to expect that their independent institutions serve the country as a whole, not blowing on the dice as chancers Cameron and Osborne made their last political gamble.

Oh, I genuinely didn’t know that democratic government had been suspended in those countries. Does that mean they’re now dictatorships? You’d think there’s be some discussion in the news about it.

EDIT: Just checked

Greece had their last general election in 2015 and have a democratically elected Government

Italy had their last elections in 2013 and are due to have their next elections in 2018.

Spain had their last elections in 2016

:lou_eyes_to_sky:

I guess there’s facts and then there’s fact, eh pal?

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Yes it’s the Fail, but midway through they do actually pick up on the fact that the Eastern EU states are having issues.

Obviously I know about Poland and they really are getting close to the start of open protests against the Right Wing Government, but interesting that Hungary and possibly the Czech Republic are turning that way as well.

Bit of a fiddling while Rome burns at the moment. All the idiots in Brussels actually needed to do was give callmedave a few soundbites about reform. But oh no…

Sod Brexit, will there be a Europe to come back to next year

hey everyone its me. I happen to have a few minutes before I leave for a short vacation (holiday) and I thought I would pop on to ask a Breixit question (naturally). Is the consensus that the Russians interferred with the Brexit vote and, if so, is there any support for undoing or redoing the vote.

Given what we know about Russian actions in the American election it seems inconceivable to me that they didn’t interfer in Brexit.

I have not research this issue on British news sites and I certainly haven’t gone back and read this thread.

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If they did, it made no difference. We were too busy believing what the bus said.

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Ah the American input. Deflecting attention from Trumps’ paymasters.

There has been a bunch of stories about evidence that Russian Businesses carried out FB trolling. But then nobody cares too much and even if they did the Brits aren’t so paranoid. You forget Redslo, Brits don’t give a shit about anything EXCEPT moaning (Whingeing Poms) so actually at the moment the entire Nation is deliriously happy, they can moan all day long about so much of Brexit.

I also expect if people were bothered and dug deeper they’d find links between all the new right wng EU parties and thinktanks who also trolled stuff out.

Bet that 350 million quid coach was done by soe right wing nutters…

Oh ad one of these

:lou_eyes_to_sky:

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I’m pretty sure the germans and french was trolling us just as hard as the russians. Stay in EU! It’s really nice! We don’t despise you English, you are our “partners’”

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Ah, so you’re one of these Americans that believes stories without evidence.

That’s probably a bigger problem than Russian influence. It must be great to believe your compatriots are so fucking stupid that they can be fooled, en masse, into voting for something they should not have done.

Not patronising at all, and certainly not self defeating.

I thought Juncker put the kybosh on that from the start, saying we had to invoke article 50 before we could start negotiating.

Ah, it wasn’t Juncker, sorry

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Informal preparatory talks, not full on negotiations.

Is what i would have said until i read this bit.

EU diplomats have rebuffed attempts by British colleagues to launch informal preparatory talks on article 50; so far the consensus shows no sign of cracking.

Maybe this is more relevant(to me at least).

one senior European diplomat conceded there was a grey area where informal talks could take place. “For now [no negotiations without notification] is fully respected because the Brits don’t know where they are going,” the diplomat told the Guardian. “The critical moment is when the Brits start sounding out the French and the Germans about what is feasible … there is a grey zone between negotiating and sounding out.”

Then again i have never believed the idiots in charge of our side wanted to negotiate sensibly.

Lordy. Welcome to the perils of Googlin’.

All the countries I mentioned had technocratic governments foisted upon them. Its laughable that you mention Greece as an example of a democracy. Yes, Syriza got to form a government, for all the good it did. The ECB cut off their money supply until they played ball. Pretty much every public asset not nailed down has been sold since.

That’s not what people voted Syriza in to do.

Really? Foisted? Define that please. Are you saying that these governments were imposed? By whom?

I’m sure there were a lot of behind-the-scene shenanigans and deals being struck but, as I understand it, the people of those countries were given a free and fair democratic choice and they voted.

This is not Syria (I guesing that’s what you mean) that we’re talking about. The two are quite different.

Oh, and an assertion does not make it a fact (or should that be ‘FACT’ for added emphasis?)

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Greece and Italy now have new Prime Ministers. Neither of them have had to endure the indignity of actually standing for election. New Italian PM, Mario Monti, is a former European commissioner and an economist. Lucas Papademos, the new Greek Prime Minister, is a former Governor of the Bank of Greece (there is a great irony in a central banker being imposed as Prime Minister following a debt crisis fuelled by poor central bank decisions and a collapse of the banking system).

The European debt crisis has been almost as damaging for democracy as it has been for the economies of the Eurozone. In Greece and Italy, democratic legitimacy is clearly regarded as an unaffordable luxury.

If democratically elected leaders do not satisfy the markets, the IMF and the European Commission, they are now, in effect, summarily dismissed, without any reference to the wishes of the people. The unsubtle message coming out of Greece and Brussels is that international bodies believe that democratic governments have failed to tackle the economic crisis and should be replaced with more reliable (and controllable) technocratic governments.

Rule by technocrats has replaced rule by the people - with unelected, economically orthodox international bodies like the European Commission and the IMF working with unelected technocrats now heading up national governments to implement tough austerity measures that have never received public backing. The democratic deficit at the heart of Europe has become a democratic chasm.

So, just a slight change of tack, I listened to, and made notes Pap, on the Budget speech yesterday.

I didn’t come away thinking “that’s going to set us up for Brexit” - if anything there seemed to be a lot more borrowing and proposals that won’t happen when the Tories get ousted - seemed more like a sop to the Tory Brexit waverers.

IMHO of course :blush: