:brexit: Brexit - The Ramifications

If they did, it made no difference. We were too busy believing what the bus said.

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Ah the American input. Deflecting attention from Trumps’ paymasters.

There has been a bunch of stories about evidence that Russian Businesses carried out FB trolling. But then nobody cares too much and even if they did the Brits aren’t so paranoid. You forget Redslo, Brits don’t give a shit about anything EXCEPT moaning (Whingeing Poms) so actually at the moment the entire Nation is deliriously happy, they can moan all day long about so much of Brexit.

I also expect if people were bothered and dug deeper they’d find links between all the new right wng EU parties and thinktanks who also trolled stuff out.

Bet that 350 million quid coach was done by soe right wing nutters…

Oh ad one of these

:lou_eyes_to_sky:

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I’m pretty sure the germans and french was trolling us just as hard as the russians. Stay in EU! It’s really nice! We don’t despise you English, you are our “partners’”

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Ah, so you’re one of these Americans that believes stories without evidence.

That’s probably a bigger problem than Russian influence. It must be great to believe your compatriots are so fucking stupid that they can be fooled, en masse, into voting for something they should not have done.

Not patronising at all, and certainly not self defeating.

I thought Juncker put the kybosh on that from the start, saying we had to invoke article 50 before we could start negotiating.

Ah, it wasn’t Juncker, sorry

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Informal preparatory talks, not full on negotiations.

Is what i would have said until i read this bit.

EU diplomats have rebuffed attempts by British colleagues to launch informal preparatory talks on article 50; so far the consensus shows no sign of cracking.

Maybe this is more relevant(to me at least).

one senior European diplomat conceded there was a grey area where informal talks could take place. “For now [no negotiations without notification] is fully respected because the Brits don’t know where they are going,” the diplomat told the Guardian. “The critical moment is when the Brits start sounding out the French and the Germans about what is feasible … there is a grey zone between negotiating and sounding out.”

Then again i have never believed the idiots in charge of our side wanted to negotiate sensibly.

Lordy. Welcome to the perils of Googlin’.

All the countries I mentioned had technocratic governments foisted upon them. Its laughable that you mention Greece as an example of a democracy. Yes, Syriza got to form a government, for all the good it did. The ECB cut off their money supply until they played ball. Pretty much every public asset not nailed down has been sold since.

That’s not what people voted Syriza in to do.

Really? Foisted? Define that please. Are you saying that these governments were imposed? By whom?

I’m sure there were a lot of behind-the-scene shenanigans and deals being struck but, as I understand it, the people of those countries were given a free and fair democratic choice and they voted.

This is not Syria (I guesing that’s what you mean) that we’re talking about. The two are quite different.

Oh, and an assertion does not make it a fact (or should that be ‘FACT’ for added emphasis?)

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Greece and Italy now have new Prime Ministers. Neither of them have had to endure the indignity of actually standing for election. New Italian PM, Mario Monti, is a former European commissioner and an economist. Lucas Papademos, the new Greek Prime Minister, is a former Governor of the Bank of Greece (there is a great irony in a central banker being imposed as Prime Minister following a debt crisis fuelled by poor central bank decisions and a collapse of the banking system).

The European debt crisis has been almost as damaging for democracy as it has been for the economies of the Eurozone. In Greece and Italy, democratic legitimacy is clearly regarded as an unaffordable luxury.

If democratically elected leaders do not satisfy the markets, the IMF and the European Commission, they are now, in effect, summarily dismissed, without any reference to the wishes of the people. The unsubtle message coming out of Greece and Brussels is that international bodies believe that democratic governments have failed to tackle the economic crisis and should be replaced with more reliable (and controllable) technocratic governments.

Rule by technocrats has replaced rule by the people - with unelected, economically orthodox international bodies like the European Commission and the IMF working with unelected technocrats now heading up national governments to implement tough austerity measures that have never received public backing. The democratic deficit at the heart of Europe has become a democratic chasm.

So, just a slight change of tack, I listened to, and made notes Pap, on the Budget speech yesterday.

I didn’t come away thinking “that’s going to set us up for Brexit” - if anything there seemed to be a lot more borrowing and proposals that won’t happen when the Tories get ousted - seemed more like a sop to the Tory Brexit waverers.

IMHO of course :blush:

It was a soundbite budget, imo. This isn’t the first time that the Tories have announced house building. They’ve just not managed it. Once again, great stock was placed on the personal allowance, which has got to be the biggest waste of money going. Almost fuck all to the individual. Billions that could be spent collectively.

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I am not clear what story you think I am believing without evidence. There is plenty of evidence of Russian interference in the American election. I did not assert that I knew Russians interferred in Brexit, just that I thought it was inconceivable that they did not given the goals and methods as reflect in the USA election. But I was asking about this? Has anyone investigated this issue in depth?

As for my compatriots being so stupid that they can be fooled etc. Of course they are. Since they time of Reagen the republican platform has been to lie to the middle and working class (which used to overlap more than they do now) about what the republicans will do for them and the democrats will do to them. I will admit that the true racists who voted for Trump were not fooled they got what they wanted, but I do think that people who consciously voted on that basis were less than half of those who voted for Trump.

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America has no qualms about interfering in the elections of other nations so I suppose it’s only fair the Russians have a bash too.

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Didn’t Obama stick his oar in during the referendum?

This may be the one positive thing that comes out of Brexit…

I am sure that the Russians use what influence they have to influence world opinion everywhere, just as everybody does. You’re asking two questions about Russian influence. Could it have been influential in the Trump election? Could it have been influential in Brexit?

Asking either question suggests that a fraction of your people can be fooled en masse to arrive at a decisive result, and ignores an uncomfortable truth.

It was there all along, in both our countries.

I watch RT, along with lots of other English language channels from non-English language countries, and I’ve watched the UK news for the last three months too. RT is Russia’s best go at influencing Western opinion in the open, and the standard of their propaganda is at times, laughable - their agenda always suspected. Bring it on. That is a _healthy _position to take with a news channel.

Admirable Pap, but given how much news media you say you watch / read, what time do you have left for the footie, tv series, computer games, the day job, eating and drinking, socialising and interacting with the family? Not forgetting Sotonians and monkey tennis.

You lead a full life

Why is that relevant?

My point is that I watch lots of different sources. RT is on stabilisers compared to the Western media, in terms of its influence and subtlety. It is not decisively influential.

Relevant? Only in the sense that I thought it was mildly amusing. I wish I could be so dedicated in my interest in this stuff. Interested and concerned about it,? Yes. Obsessed? Certainly not…

I don’t spend many hours on dodgily diagnosing obsessions in others. It frees up a lot of time for other considerations.