Originally posted by TheMightyOstrich

Originally posted by pap

 How is that different from being an anti-war campaigner and internationalist, anywhere?

How can you look past Greece?

So are you saying you can't feel European without signing up lock, stock and barrel to everything the EU dictates? That's weird. Do you currently not consider yourself British because you disagree with the Tory government?

 No, I'm saying that some things can't be assessed cumulatively, and that there are certain deal-breakers that you just cannot live with.   Greece would be one of them.   Not only are the folk that are left there (emigration has been rampant) still in a mire they cannot solve, but they've had their democracy taken from them, and forced to sell off all of their public assets, at the behest of a relatively small cabal of establishment politicians.

Is the treatment of Greece indicative of European Union values?   It certainly is if we weight our judgement on actions instead of words.   My posting history elsewhere will show me as a pro-European about a decade ago, and that was largely because I'd seen the good it had done in Liverpool.   EU money got things built, got businesses on the Internet, and built a real IT sector in the city.

However, I can't overlook Greece, nor can I overlook the inherent dangers of a large military force beholden only to similar small cabals of establishment politicians in the future.   People are nervous as fuck about Germany remilitarising.   The EU Army will be presented as the softer political option, but in reality, will probably be a lot scarier.