Pellegrino: Surely it is time for a change?

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Simon says posted this 03 January 2018

If the stats in this tweet are accurate then surely the club needs to swallow their pride and chop him before it is too late.

After Ralph essentially gave him the vote of confidence only yesterday, it would be incredibly embarassing to axe him, but that has to be better than the very real threat of relegation.

I hold my hands up and admit that I felt good vibes from his very first interview and thought he was going to be an improvement. How wrong I was. Clearly he is a nice and honest bloke, but clearly what we need is a horrible fucker to get the respect of these useless bastards and get them organised. We have a team full of nice guys and no real leaders. Just look at our captain and vice captain - Davis and Yoshida are both decent human beings but they are still rather passive and dont appear capable of organising and galvanising this bunch of players in to getting us out of this mess. They are in many ways a reflection of the manager's characteristics.

What we need is a manager, not a 'coach', as Ralph described him. But who is out there that fits the mould? I think our structure discourages such types as they inevitably want more power and control over the buying and selling of players. 

Discuss.

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gavstar posted this 03 January 2018

Come back Steve!  All is forgiven lou_sad

gavstar posted this 03 January 2018

I do remember us having other managers though, where are they on that list?

Fowllyd posted this 03 January 2018

If that stat is correct then it's deeply troubling. As I said on the Palace match thread, I felt highly concerned that our substitutes last night had a negative effect on the team, whereas Hodgson's made a positive difference to Palace (not forgetting here that Hodgson is a very decent manager and Pellegrino something of a novice). Normally I'd feel very uneasy about sacking a manager halfway through a season, but right now I'm beginning to waver on that.

I don't agree though that what we need is a manager and not a coach, though, or that we need a nasty bastard to get the players motivated. You don't earn respect by being a horrible fucker, and managing by fear will only produce scared players - judging by some of our play this season, that's the last thing we need right now. What we need is someone who can instill some confidence and belief in the players; as far as I can see that's what's glaringly missing right now.

gavstar posted this 03 January 2018

Puel had a win rate of 37.4% apparently - looks impressive til you see the loss rate was exactly the same (P53 - W20 - D13 - L20).

Simon says posted this 03 January 2018

Originally posted by Fowllyd

If that stat is correct then it's deeply troubling. As I said on the Palace match thread, I felt highly concerned that our substitutes last night had a negative effect on the team, whereas Hodgson's made a positive difference to Palace (not forgetting here that Hodgson is a very decent manager and Pellegrino something of a novice). Normally I'd feel very uneasy about sacking a manager halfway through a season, but right now I'm beginning to waver on that.

I don't agree though that what we need is a manager and not a coach, though, or that we need a nasty bastard to get the players motivated. You don't earn respect by being a horrible fucker, and managing by fear will only produce scared players - judging by some of our play this season, that's the last thing we need right now. What we need is someone who can instill some confidence and belief in the players; as far as I can see that's what's glaringly missing right now.

Nasty bastard was probably a bit strong but we certainly need a disciplinarian to get their respect and to get them organised. Watching the side I don't feel that they have much respect for the manager, his team selections nor tactics.

Take the VVD situation... if he really was a massively disruptive influence as Ralph alluded to, then he should've been in the U23's and away from the first team. Instead he played him and often dropped Hoedt, which in turn pissed him off in the process. Given that Liverpool's obsession and interest was far from over (just look at the £75m fee!) then I cannot even accept the need to play him was to put him in the window for others. If we had sold him to City or somebody else then fair enough but we didn't. It also sounds like we were the ones to pick up the phone to the scousers, not the other way around.

Was the manager influenced/forced to play him? Either way that doesn't demonstrate strong leadership.

Have you heard the Rickie Lambert interview where he said he and Jos went in to see Pochettino and challenged him about the amount of running they were having to do in training? He was very nice about it apparently but ensured that they did even more running the following day, just to let them know who was boss. So it is possible to be a nice guy, and loved by the players, but still command respect.

 

Fowllyd posted this 03 January 2018

Originally posted by Simon says

Originally posted by Fowllyd

If that stat is correct then it's deeply troubling. As I said on the Palace match thread, I felt highly concerned that our substitutes last night had a negative effect on the team, whereas Hodgson's made a positive difference to Palace (not forgetting here that Hodgson is a very decent manager and Pellegrino something of a novice). Normally I'd feel very uneasy about sacking a manager halfway through a season, but right now I'm beginning to waver on that.

I don't agree though that what we need is a manager and not a coach, though, or that we need a nasty bastard to get the players motivated. You don't earn respect by being a horrible fucker, and managing by fear will only produce scared players - judging by some of our play this season, that's the last thing we need right now. What we need is someone who can instill some confidence and belief in the players; as far as I can see that's what's glaringly missing right now.

Nasty bastard was probably a bit strong but we certainly need a disciplinarian to get their respect and to get them organised. Watching the side I don't feel that they have much respect for the manager, his team selections nor tactics.

Take the VVD situation... if he really was a massively disruptive influence as Ralph alluded to, then he should've been in the U23's and away from the first team. Instead he played him and often dropped Hoedt, which in turn pissed him off in the process. Given that Liverpool's obsession and interest was far from over (just look at the £75m fee!) then I cannot even accept the need to play him was to put him in the window for others. If we had sold him to City or somebody else then fair enough but we didn't. It also sounds like we were the ones to pick up the phone to the scousers, not the other way around.

Was the manager influenced/forced to play him? Either way that doesn't demonstrate strong leadership.

Have you heard the Rickie Lambert interview where he said he and Jos went in to see Pochettino and challenged him about the amount of running they were having to do in training? He was very nice about it apparently but ensured that they did even more running the following day, just to let them know who was boss. So it is possible to be a nice guy, and loved by the players, but still command respect.

 

On that I'd agree. Respect and fear are very different things, but people often seem to confuse them (not saying that you did, as you clearly didn't). We need someone who can motivate and inspire, whose tactics and vision the players can buy into (if you'll forgive the cliché). I hadn't heard the Lambert thing, but I liked that.

Only problem I have now is that I haven't the fucking foggiest who we'd be able to get who would fit the bill.

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Saint or sinner posted this 03 January 2018

I'm with @Fowllydon the substitutions. He opened up our midfield, which led to their second goal(just watch the replay and look at the space). This is not the first time either.

He appears to have no understanding of how a game changes, or how to react when it does.

Early, but maybe time to admit defeat and get working on who we want to replace Pellegrino. Someone that fits in with our way of buying supposed shit and turning them into gems, that others are willing to pay handsomely for. He should also play a technical game and be successful at it, whilst being open to adapting his style to suit the competition. Preferably English(that's important to some. Not really sure why), not too expensive to obtain and have no delusions about massive transfer budgets. If only such a man was to become available in the next month or so.

MrTrampoline posted this 03 January 2018

Originally posted by Saint or sinner

I'm with @Fowllydon the substitutions. He opened up our midfield, which led to their second goal(just watch the replay and look at the space). This is not the first time either.

He appears to have no understanding of how a game changes, or how to react when it does.

Early, but maybe time to admit defeat and get working on who we want to replace Pellegrino. Someone that fits in with our way of buying supposed shit and turning them into gems, that others are willing to pay handsomely for. He should also play a technical game and be successful at it, whilst being open to adapting his style to suit the competition. Preferably English(that's important to some. Not really sure why), not too expensive to obtain and have no delusions about massive transfer budgets. If only such a man was to become available in the next month or so.

 Agreed, - and the bolded is is the crucial point - we react terribly and can't seem to ever adjust to goals at either end.

We go a goal down and the heads drop, we go a goal up and sit back and desperately try and cling to it with no confidence of trying to add a second. Reminds me an awful lot of 08/09 where we drew tonnes of matches 1-1 with the opponents scoring the equaliser.

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Nottarf Krap posted this 03 January 2018

He's lost the fans, they never recover from that. Reference Koeman at Everton.

CB Saint posted this 03 January 2018

I am normally one to "give it time" - I certainly was with Puel and i would probably have kept him. However, god only knows how he is going to recover this. The Leicester and Palace games were attrocious - SMS is becoming toxic, with the crowd getting on the backs of the players and the manager.

He is done

CB Saint posted this 03 January 2018

Originally posted by Saint or sinner

I'm with @Fowllydon the substitutions. He opened up our midfield, which led to their second goal(just watch the replay and look at the space). This is not the first time either.

He appears to have no understanding of how a game changes, or how to react when it does.

Early, but maybe time to admit defeat and get working on who we want to replace Pellegrino. Someone that fits in with our way of buying supposed shit and turning them into gems, that others are willing to pay handsomely for. He should also play a technical game and be successful at it, whilst being open to adapting his style to suit the competition. Preferably English(that's important to some. Not really sure why), not too expensive to obtain and have no delusions about massive transfer budgets. If only such a man was to become available in the next month or so.

 Couldn't give a  stuff where they come from. They can come from the planet Zod for all I care, just as long as they can find a way of getting 11 overpaid tosspots to earn their corn.

Bearsy posted this 03 January 2018 - Last edited 03 January 2018

I could've excused last night on basis that it weren't his fault that we had to play the fkn Yo Shida & Steve Jackson CB dream team again, but he's already served up too many Embarrassing Results this season, so I would prob give him the Elbow, despite all his nice hair, and let some other bro have a pop.

I'm still traumatised from the first 10 mins of the Spurs game over christmas. I've never seen anything like it. I had to turn off before even the first goal went in.

cellone posted this 03 January 2018

I reckon we need a team first. Doesn't feel like we've had one since two summers ago. I know it's a bit chicken/egg but Saints have been mismanaged for the last couple of years. I mean by those higher than the head coach. 

Areola Grandee posted this 03 January 2018

Ot had to be done...

Image result for evian?

Areola Grandee posted this 03 January 2018 - Last edited 03 January 2018

Up until acouple of seasons ago, our annual sales/recruitment model was doing rather well. For good reason we were hailed as a model club, with a great scouting network and analysis ensureing we were able to pick up talent and then sell on at a profit with replacements semingly equal to the task. The theory is great, with decent revenues generated, with season on season improvements. Problem is, its a bit like a chainletter/Ponzi scheme, you have to keep feeding / recruiting at the bottom (in our case the conveyor belt of academy talent included) if the cream is always to be syphoned off the top. It also relies on managers beig able to improve and rapidly integrate new players into an established system...

Its not without risk... as we now see, if you fail to recruit quality or the academy dries up, we go backwards, especilly with the perfect strom of a manager struggling to find his feet.

I can understand fans concerns as the table reflects the difficulties of that perfect storm. But I just dont get it when some fans start ranting and raving. It was the same during the Lowe years, when you saw real 'hatred' aimed at folks just for not running a football club the way some fans wanted it to be run... which is frankly unjustified and a bit pathetic. being dissappointed is one thing, even getting carried away a bit and being angry is fair enough, but some the bile slung about is just ridiculous. If it causes that much emotional imbalance, stop fucking supporting because its unhealthy,

dinger posted this 03 January 2018

Originally posted by Areola Grandee

But I just dont get it when some fans start ranting and raving. It was the same during the Lowe years, when you saw real 'hatred' aimed at folks just for not running a football club the way some fans wanted it to be run... which is frankly unjustified and a bit pathetic. being dissappointed is one thing, even getting carried away a bit and being angry is fair enough, but some the bile slung about is just ridiculous. If it causes that much emotional imbalance, stop fucking supporting because its unhealthy,

Yeah, agree with this. I almost walked away from the whole thing during the Lowe protests; Saints and football both. I'm starting to feel similarly now. It's not about how well Saints are playing (although that's not a great bonanza of good times), it's the atmosphere and the complete disconnect I feel from people who can get so vitriolic.

Maybe it's just me. Maybe I should withdraw from society and live in the woods.

Maybe I could teach squirrels to play cricket. With the badgers as umpires.

Areola Grandee posted this 03 January 2018

PS. I should have added,its not really aimed at anyone on here (expect a coupleof usual suspects)... more aimed at the fuckwits that lit their torches and grabbed their pitchforks back inNovember and have been desperate for failure to justify their perspectives/POV

Simon says posted this 03 January 2018

Originally posted by Areola Grandee

Up until acouple of seasons ago, our annual sales/recruitment model was doing rather well. For good reason we were hailed as a model club, with a great scouting network and analysis ensureing we were able to pick up talent and then sell on at a profit with replacements semingly equal to the task. The theory is great, with decent revenues generated, with season on season improvements. Problem is, its a bit like a chainletter/Ponzi scheme, you have to keep feeding / recruiting at the bottom (in our case the conveyor belt of academy talent included) if the cream is always to be syphoned off the top. It also relies on managers beig able to improve and rapidly integrate new players into an established system...

Its not without risk... as we now see, if you fail to recruit quality or the academy dries up, we go backwards, especilly with the perfect strom of a manager struggling to find his feet.

I can understand fans concerns as the table reflects the difficulties of that perfect storm. But I just dont get it when some fans start ranting and raving. It was the same during the Lowe years, when you saw real 'hatred' aimed at folks just for not running a football club the way some fans wanted it to be run... which is frankly unjustified and a bit pathetic. being dissappointed is one thing, even getting carried away a bit and being angry is fair enough, but some the bile slung about is just ridiculous. If it causes that much emotional imbalance, stop fucking supporting because its unhealthy,

Totally agree with the first two paragraphs. 

However, regarding your third paragraph, I reserve the right to be an irrational mess when I walk in to work to be greeted with sympathy from Newcastle fans! 

wink

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Areola Grandee posted this 03 January 2018

Originally posted by dinger

Originally posted by Areola Grandee

But I just dont get it when some fans start ranting and raving. It was the same during the Lowe years, when you saw real 'hatred' aimed at folks just for not running a football club the way some fans wanted it to be run... which is frankly unjustified and a bit pathetic. being dissappointed is one thing, even getting carried away a bit and being angry is fair enough, but some the bile slung about is just ridiculous. If it causes that much emotional imbalance, stop fucking supporting because its unhealthy,

Yeah, agree with this. I almost walked away from the whole thing during the Lowe protests; Saints and football both. I'm starting to feel similarly now. It's not about how well Saints are playing (although that's not a great bonanza of good times), it's the atmosphere and the complete disconnect I feel from people who can get so vitriolic.

Maybe it's just me. Maybe I should withdraw from society and live in the woods.

Maybe I could teach squirrels to play cricket. With the badgers as umpires.

 TBH,I think its a good sighn that you have more interests and value other things in life. I think those that get so obsessively fucked up by football and club support are typically lacking in much else in their lives.  

I really enjoyed the L1/Championship days, because you could just support and not worry about out status in the game.  I still lived close enough for to go each week and despite there being only 15-16k at some games, it was a good time of positive atmosphere ... There are some fans for who our relative status is some sort of ego massage....

Dubai_Phil posted this 03 January 2018

Since the arrival of Markus we have always had a coach. We will NOT recruit a Manager.

It is the Southampton Way. Which also dictates ourcsupposed style and tactics.

Think I did mention that...

The issue now is that fear and discord have grown unchecked. Sacking Purl instilled the fear of failure fear of a misplaced pass. Fear of losing possession. Fear of upsetting a player.

It is toxic and will not be solved by firing MoPe.

He needs new blood now and the Southampton Way (written before we went into admin) needs to be modernised and a new style/formation and flexibility must be allowed to permeate.

IF the U8s play 4-23-1 then that' what MP  must do.

Change the fucking formation Les. It is out of date

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