Should we simply ban faith schools and be done with it?

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hoofinruth posted this 11 December 2015 - Last edited 11 December 2015

Yes - all of them, inc. Christian and Jewish ones too.

 And I speak as someone who has a grandchild at a CofE primary

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Barry Sanchez posted this 11 December 2015

Originally posted by hoofinruth

Yes - all of them, inc. Christian and Jewish ones too.

 

I'm all for that, Church, Mosque and Synagogue are places of worship and religious dogma not schools.

A chapel, church, synagogue, mosque can be on site for prayer but if is one then all faiths have to represented.

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Bucks posted this 11 December 2015

Not unless you are keen to reduce the standard of education, which in the great majority of faith schools is very good.    This is a story about a modest number of unregistered schools which should rightly close down immediately whatever faith they are.

Barry Sanchez posted this 11 December 2015

Originally posted by Bucks

Not unless you are keen to reduce the standard of education, which in the great majority of faith schools is very good.    This is a story about a modest number of unregistered schools which should rightly close down immediately whatever faith they are.

Why? Why is faith important in education? Why can't it be done at home or at a church etc etc? Why indoctrinate someone when there are no facts to prove it? If religion were a TV trading standards would have a field day lets be honest.

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hoofinruth posted this 11 December 2015

Originally posted by Bucks

Not unless you are keen to reduce the standard of education, which in the great majority of faith schools is very good.    This is a story about a modest number of unregistered schools which should rightly close down immediately whatever faith they are.

 IF faith schools are so good then they operate a form of selection that is as insidious as academic selection.  I can only speak for CofE schools but their admission criteria are very strict.  Apart from looked after children they only look at children from families who regularly attend CofE establishments.  If they're so good then it's a bit harsh on children who live in catchment but who don't attend church.

Areola Grandee posted this 11 December 2015

I think ...Barry, I will play along this time. Yes ban them all...but because I am an atheist and therefore do not believe any children should be brought up in or be taught religion of any form. Those that wish to follow a faith should be free to do so when they are adult enough to make up their own minds as opposed to being in effect brainwashed into faith...

In this case we are talking about schools that are unregistered so the teaching content is pretty irrelevent (yet it's mentioned)

...however, given the current climate, I dare say there are plenty who have been very quiet historically and never had an issue with Catholic or CoE schools, yet now seem keen to ban Islamic schools etc... groups and individuals that that will look to make a point without revealing their real hidden motives - bit like those bigotted cunts Br First... 

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Barry Sanchez posted this 11 December 2015

Originally posted by Gay Abandon

I think ...Barry, I will play along this time. Yes ban them all...but because I am an atheist and therefore do not believe any children should be brought up in or be taught religion of any form. Those that wish to follow a faith should be free to do so when they are adult enough to make up their own minds as opposed to being in effect brainwashed into faith...

In this case we are talking about schools that are unregistered so the teaching content is pretty irrelevent (yet it's mentioned)

...however, given the current climate, I dare say there are plenty who have been very quiet historically and never had an issue with Catholic or CoE schools, yet now seem keen to ban Islamic schools etc... groups and individuals that that will look to make a point without revealing their real hidden motives - bit like those bigotted cunts Br First... 

If you ban one you have to ban all regardless of whether one is open, accepting of people of all faiths and beliefs and the other is a stoneage horse in the sky lie, you have to be balanced and fair.

Why should religion be allowed a free reign in schools? This Country split from State and Church centuries ago, if you want to practice religion practice it in the relevant place, schools should be a mixture of their local population not in effect parallel lives from day one.

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Bucks posted this 11 December 2015 - Last edited 11 December 2015

Originally posted by Barry Sanchez

Originally posted by Bucks

Not unless you are keen to reduce the standard of education, which in the great majority of faith schools is very good.    This is a story about a modest number of unregistered schools which should rightly close down immediately whatever faith they are.

Why? Why is faith important in education? Why can't it be done at home or at a church etc etc? Why indoctrinate someone when there are no facts to prove it? If religion were a TV trading standards would have a field day lets be honest.

 I did not say faith was important or the reason these schools (generally) do well.   I dont know why, other than what they tend to claim, but the fact remains.   Some have slipped but conversely, it is particulatly true for primary schools I think i saw recently.

And as I said, the story you posted has very little to do with the merits or otherwise of faith schools, its about the much more sinister and dangerous unregistered schools appearing.

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Barry Sanchez posted this 11 December 2015

Originally posted by Bucks

Originally posted by Barry Sanchez

Originally posted by Bucks

Not unless you are keen to reduce the standard of education, which in the great majority of faith schools is very good.    This is a story about a modest number of unregistered schools which should rightly close down immediately whatever faith they are.

Why? Why is faith important in education? Why can't it be done at home or at a church etc etc? Why indoctrinate someone when there are no facts to prove it? If religion were a TV trading standards would have a field day lets be honest.

 I did not say faith was important or the reason these schools (generally) do well.   I dont know why, other than what they tend to claim, but the fact remains.   Some have slipped but conversely, it is particulatly true for primary schools I think i saw recently.

And as I said, the story you posted has very little to do with the merits or otherwise of faith schools, its about the much more sinister and dangerous unregistered schools appearing.

But the wider issue is why do we need it in our education system? What purpose does it serve other than to divide along religious lines?

Bucks posted this 11 December 2015 - Last edited 11 December 2015

Originally posted by Barry Sanchez

Originally posted by Bucks

Originally posted by Barry Sanchez

Originally posted by Bucks

Not unless you are keen to reduce the standard of education, which in the great majority of faith schools is very good.    This is a story about a modest number of unregistered schools which should rightly close down immediately whatever faith they are.

Why? Why is faith important in education? Why can't it be done at home or at a church etc etc? Why indoctrinate someone when there are no facts to prove it? If religion were a TV trading standards would have a field day lets be honest.

 I did not say faith was important or the reason these schools (generally) do well.   I dont know why, other than what they tend to claim, but the fact remains.   Some have slipped but conversely, it is particulatly true for primary schools I think i saw recently.

And as I said, the story you posted has very little to do with the merits or otherwise of faith schools, its about the much more sinister and dangerous unregistered schools appearing.

But the wider issue is why do we need it in our education system? What purpose does it serve other than to divide along religious lines?

Baz keep up, you are letting your mini crusade blind you to the basics here.   As I said, the other purpose they serve, mostly successfully, is to deliver good quality education.   

Barry Sanchez posted this 11 December 2015

Originally posted by Bucks

Originally posted by Barry Sanchez

Originally posted by Bucks

Originally posted by Barry Sanchez

Originally posted by Bucks

Not unless you are keen to reduce the standard of education, which in the great majority of faith schools is very good.    This is a story about a modest number of unregistered schools which should rightly close down immediately whatever faith they are.

Why? Why is faith important in education? Why can't it be done at home or at a church etc etc? Why indoctrinate someone when there are no facts to prove it? If religion were a TV trading standards would have a field day lets be honest.

 I did not say faith was important or the reason these schools (generally) do well.   I dont know why, other than what they tend to claim, but the fact remains.   Some have slipped but conversely, it is particulatly true for primary schools I think i saw recently.

And as I said, the story you posted has very little to do with the merits or otherwise of faith schools, its about the much more sinister and dangerous unregistered schools appearing.

But the wider issue is why do we need it in our education system? What purpose does it serve other than to divide along religious lines?

Baz keep up, you are letting your mini crusade blind you to the basics here.   As I said, the other purpose they serve, mostly successfully, is to deliver good quality education.   

Surely if they devoted more time to education as opposed to religious ventures then they would improve even more? Am I blind to that? THey'll still be amazing schools even if they don't teach religion anymore surely? Or would the religious studies teachers be going on a hunger strike for their rights to teach religious dogma to children?

Bucks posted this 11 December 2015

Originally posted by Barry Sanchez

Originally posted by Bucks

Originally posted by Barry Sanchez

Originally posted by Bucks

Originally posted by Barry Sanchez

Originally posted by Bucks

Not unless you are keen to reduce the standard of education, which in the great majority of faith schools is very good.    This is a story about a modest number of unregistered schools which should rightly close down immediately whatever faith they are.

Why? Why is faith important in education? Why can't it be done at home or at a church etc etc? Why indoctrinate someone when there are no facts to prove it? If religion were a TV trading standards would have a field day lets be honest.

 I did not say faith was important or the reason these schools (generally) do well.   I dont know why, other than what they tend to claim, but the fact remains.   Some have slipped but conversely, it is particulatly true for primary schools I think i saw recently.

And as I said, the story you posted has very little to do with the merits or otherwise of faith schools, its about the much more sinister and dangerous unregistered schools appearing.

But the wider issue is why do we need it in our education system? What purpose does it serve other than to divide along religious lines?

Baz keep up, you are letting your mini crusade blind you to the basics here.   As I said, the other purpose they serve, mostly successfully, is to deliver good quality education.   

Surely if they devoted more time to education as opposed to religious ventures then they would improve even more? Am I blind to that? THey'll still be amazing schools even if they don't teach religion anymore surely? Or would the religious studies teachers be going on a hunger strike for their rights to teach religious dogma to children?

 Ok so you would like to improve them, not ban them.  Sounds fair enough, good luck. 

Barry Sanchez posted this 11 December 2015

Originally posted by Bucks

Originally posted by Barry Sanchez

Originally posted by Bucks

Originally posted by Barry Sanchez

Originally posted by Bucks

Originally posted by Barry Sanchez

Originally posted by Bucks

Not unless you are keen to reduce the standard of education, which in the great majority of faith schools is very good.    This is a story about a modest number of unregistered schools which should rightly close down immediately whatever faith they are.

Why? Why is faith important in education? Why can't it be done at home or at a church etc etc? Why indoctrinate someone when there are no facts to prove it? If religion were a TV trading standards would have a field day lets be honest.

 I did not say faith was important or the reason these schools (generally) do well.   I dont know why, other than what they tend to claim, but the fact remains.   Some have slipped but conversely, it is particulatly true for primary schools I think i saw recently.

And as I said, the story you posted has very little to do with the merits or otherwise of faith schools, its about the much more sinister and dangerous unregistered schools appearing.

But the wider issue is why do we need it in our education system? What purpose does it serve other than to divide along religious lines?

Baz keep up, you are letting your mini crusade blind you to the basics here.   As I said, the other purpose they serve, mostly successfully, is to deliver good quality education.   

Surely if they devoted more time to education as opposed to religious ventures then they would improve even more? Am I blind to that? THey'll still be amazing schools even if they don't teach religion anymore surely? Or would the religious studies teachers be going on a hunger strike for their rights to teach religious dogma to children?

 Ok so you would like to improve them, not ban them.  Sounds fair enough, good luck. 

Religion is divisive and unproven, why have it in a school of learning? I am talking about being inclusive and open not restrictive, don't you agree?

Goatboy posted this 11 December 2015

"To give pleasure to a single heart by a single act is better than a thousand heads bowing in prayer."

Gandhi. Sandal wearer.

Barry Sanchez posted this 11 December 2015

Originally posted by Goatboy

"To give pleasure to a single heart by a single act is better than a thousand heads bowing in prayer."

Gandhi. Sandal wearer.

A true inspiration of a man.

Bucks posted this 11 December 2015

Originally posted by Barry Sanchez

Originally posted by Bucks

Originally posted by Barry Sanchez

Originally posted by Bucks

Originally posted by Barry Sanchez

Originally posted by Bucks

Originally posted by Barry Sanchez

Originally posted by Bucks

Not unless you are keen to reduce the standard of education, which in the great majority of faith schools is very good.    This is a story about a modest number of unregistered schools which should rightly close down immediately whatever faith they are.

Why? Why is faith important in education? Why can't it be done at home or at a church etc etc? Why indoctrinate someone when there are no facts to prove it? If religion were a TV trading standards would have a field day lets be honest.

 I did not say faith was important or the reason these schools (generally) do well.   I dont know why, other than what they tend to claim, but the fact remains.   Some have slipped but conversely, it is particulatly true for primary schools I think i saw recently.

And as I said, the story you posted has very little to do with the merits or otherwise of faith schools, its about the much more sinister and dangerous unregistered schools appearing.

But the wider issue is why do we need it in our education system? What purpose does it serve other than to divide along religious lines?

Baz keep up, you are letting your mini crusade blind you to the basics here.   As I said, the other purpose they serve, mostly successfully, is to deliver good quality education.   

Surely if they devoted more time to education as opposed to religious ventures then they would improve even more? Am I blind to that? THey'll still be amazing schools even if they don't teach religion anymore surely? Or would the religious studies teachers be going on a hunger strike for their rights to teach religious dogma to children?

 Ok so you would like to improve them, not ban them.  Sounds fair enough, good luck. 

Religion is divisive and unproven, why have it in a school of learning? I am talking about being inclusive and open not restrictive, don't you agree?

 You are doing a lot of talking but not too much listening.

pap posted this 12 December 2015 - Last edited 12 December 2015

I've got kids that have both gone through the Catholic system in Liverpool.   Their mum is a Catholic, so it wasn't that much of a stretch.   I've got sympathy for both viewpoints; I don't really think that religion should be guiding education, but I also recognise that the primary school my kids went to is the best in the city for SAT results, and that their secondary education has comprised a comprehensive religious studies component, which hasn't only exposed them to other faiths, but also asks big questions on ethics.

The eldest got into a Russell Group University because of that education.   The youngest got an A* Spanish GCSE at fourteen because her primary school thought it'd be a cool idea to teach the kids Spanish.  It was.

The ideal would be to have that quality of education across the board, but I wonder how do-able it is.   Whatever else you might say about religious schools, they have more to fall back on than regular state schools. They still get state money, but a lot of money gets donated through the collective enterprise of the school and church.   In Liverpool's case, it has resulted in the best primary school in the city serving some of its most deprived kids.   That's a brilliant state of affairs, and I'd hate to lose it.

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Barry Sanchez posted this 12 December 2015

I thought Booker Avenue was the Cities best along with Belvedere? Why should the state fund church schools?

pap posted this 12 December 2015

Booker Avenue not in this top ten, or Belvedere.

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/revealed-merseysides-10-best-primary-10580573

That list also gives a good example of why the government funds church schools.  6/10 of the best performing SATS schools in Merseyside are "faith schools".

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pap posted this 12 December 2015 - Last edited 12 December 2015

The other thing I would say is that some places have a regime that is good for the kid concerned.   A mate of ours has a son who is a bit unruly.  No harm in him, but very little in the way of filtering either.   Loads of schools were unable to handle him, and for a long time, it looked like he might become another statistic.   He has been going to King David's for years now, a school focused on the education of Jewish children but also admitting kids from other faiths.    It has completely turned him around.

I'm not saying that secular schools are going to have an identikit approach, but my suspicion is that he'd have been bounced off to some state-run institution for kids they can't accommodate within the main stream.   Again, it's anecdotal, but the existence of a faith school might have done some good here.

I say all this as a person that isn't particularly religious.   The ideal would be top quality education with no religious dimension, but at the same time, the faith school system hasn't turned either of my girls into religious zealots (or even religious, for that matter) and I'd wonder where the additonal funding currently raised through the school levy and the diocese would come from.

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