The Lobby - Al Jazeera series

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pap posted this 15 January 2017

Pursuant to StickyWhiteDovePiss' suggestion, and rather mindful of this topic drowning in soup or croutons on Fatso's other thread, I have started my first thread on the subject on Sotonians.    In the early days, we had enough to be going on with.   Wedded to that is a genuine change in my posting style.   Over on TSW, I'd end up in interminable debates discussing may-have-happeneds.    These days, I try to wait for the chickens to come home to roost.

Al Jazeera put an undercover reporter into contact with pro-Israel groups in the United Kingdom.  This four part series is the result.

Now we've experienced, to a small degree, a farcical version of some of what happens in these videos, particularly when Furball was around.    Accusations of antisemitism have been falsely levelled at many of our site members, just as they were at the Labour Party conference, when Joan Ryan exhausted her patter on settlements, decided that her questioner was antisemitic, then put in a formal (and eventually overturned) complaint.

Lots to discuss here.   Foreign powers exercising undue influence in UK politics.   Supposedly independent and impartial voices appearing to sing in spontaneous chorus, but actually singing from the Israel Embassy hymnsheet.   Indeed, even the difficulty of discussing the subject is up for debate.

It's a debate I'd like to have, free of soup interference. 

Vids will follow.

 

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pap posted this 15 January 2017

Part One - Young Friends of Israel

pap posted this 15 January 2017

Part 2 - The Training Session

pap posted this 15 January 2017

Part 3 - An Anti-Semitic Trope

pap posted this 15 January 2017

Part 4 - The Takedown

gavstar posted this 16 January 2017

Started watching this series on the soup thread, interesting and astonishing that this has been developing and building momentum under everyone's noses.  Do we know if there's been any follow up official or otherwise on this since it was released?

Goatboy posted this 16 January 2017

Originally posted by gavstar

Started watching this series on the soup thread, interesting and astonishing that this has been developing and building momentum under everyone's noses.  Do we know if there's been any follow up official or otherwise on this since it was released?

 What dya reckon gavstar?

gavstar posted this 16 January 2017

Originally posted by Goatboy

Originally posted by gavstar

Started watching this series on the soup thread, interesting and astonishing that this has been developing and building momentum under everyone's noses.  Do we know if there's been any follow up official or otherwise on this since it was released?

 What dya reckon gavstar?

 As to whether or not there's been any follow up?  I'm going to guess no.

Goatboy posted this 16 January 2017

Originally posted by gavstar

Originally posted by Goatboy

Originally posted by gavstar

Started watching this series on the soup thread, interesting and astonishing that this has been developing and building momentum under everyone's noses.  Do we know if there's been any follow up official or otherwise on this since it was released?

 What dya reckon gavstar?

 As to whether or not there's been any follow up?  I'm going to guess no.

 I'd say that was a pretty safe bet.

gavstar posted this 16 January 2017

Originally posted by Goatboy

Originally posted by gavstar

Originally posted by Goatboy

Originally posted by gavstar

Started watching this series on the soup thread, interesting and astonishing that this has been developing and building momentum under everyone's noses.  Do we know if there's been any follow up official or otherwise on this since it was released?

 What dya reckon gavstar?

 As to whether or not there's been any follow up?  I'm going to guess no.

 I'd say that was a pretty safe bet.

 Does it make me anti-semitic that I want someone to follow it up?

Goatboy posted this 16 January 2017

I think so. You can cancel it out though by sitting at home in striped pyjamas and watching Schindler's List on loop. 

gavstar posted this 16 January 2017

Originally posted by Goatboy

I think so. You can cancel it out though by sitting at home in striped pyjamas and watching Schindler's List on loop. 

 Fuck.  I'd been doing so well all these years managing not to be.

pap posted this 16 January 2017 - Last edited 16 January 2017

Originally posted by gavstar

Started watching this series on the soup thread, interesting and astonishing that this has been developing and building momentum under everyone's noses.  Do we know if there's been any follow up official or otherwise on this since it was released?

Well, Mark Regev has apologised.   The Foreign Office, unbelievably enough, considers the matter closed.   Emily Thornberry had this to say:-

“It is simply not good enough for the Foreign Office to say the matter is closed. This is a national security issue.” As well as calling for an inquiry, she said the embassy official should be withdrawn.

A more interesting comment comes courtesy of an unnamed former minister in the Cameron government.

“British foreign policy is in hock to Israeli influence at the heart of our politics, and those in authority have ignored what is going on.

“For years the Conservative Friends of Israel (CFI) and Labour Friends of Israel (LFI) have worked with – even for – the Israeli embassy to promote Israeli policy and thwart UK government policy and the actions of ministers who try to defend Palestinian rights.

“Lots of countries try to force their views on others, but what is scandalous in the UK is that instead of resisting it, successive governments have submitted to it, take donors’ money, and allowed Israeli influence-peddling to shape policy and even determine the fate of ministers.”

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jan/08/labour-calls-for-inquiry-into-israeli-diplomats-take-down-mps-plot

gavstar posted this 16 January 2017

Hmmm.  Thanks pap, that certainly answers my question.  The lack of reaction is more infuriating to me than the actual events that were exposed.  I wonder how far the rabbit hole goes.

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pap posted this 17 January 2017

Originally posted by gavstar

Hmmm.  Thanks pap, that certainly answers my question.  The lack of reaction is more infuriating to me than the actual events that were exposed.  I wonder how far the rabbit hole goes.

It's interesting how widespread that lack of reaction is.   I've made the point in the other threads, but the US has expelled diplomats on the basis of much much less, and yet few in the UK establishment seems that arsed, which is reflected on this site to an extent too.

Personally, I think that the lobby has succeeded on one front; making the situation very difficult to discuss for all but the most clued up or brave.

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gavstar posted this 17 January 2017

Originally posted by pap

Originally posted by gavstar

Hmmm.  Thanks pap, that certainly answers my question.  The lack of reaction is more infuriating to me than the actual events that were exposed.  I wonder how far the rabbit hole goes.

It's interesting how widespread that lack of reaction is.   I've made the point in the other threads, but the US has expelled diplomats on the basis of much much less, and yet few in the UK establishment seems that arsed, which is reflected on this site to an extent too.

Personally, I think that the lobby has succeeded on one front; making the situation very difficult to discuss for all but the most clued up or brave.

 This is where I fall down, still trying to learn about the history between Israel and Palestine, let alone how it's affecting international relationships and foreign policy.

pap posted this 17 January 2017

Originally posted by gavstar

Originally posted by pap

Originally posted by gavstar

Hmmm.  Thanks pap, that certainly answers my question.  The lack of reaction is more infuriating to me than the actual events that were exposed.  I wonder how far the rabbit hole goes.

It's interesting how widespread that lack of reaction is.   I've made the point in the other threads, but the US has expelled diplomats on the basis of much much less, and yet few in the UK establishment seems that arsed, which is reflected on this site to an extent too.

Personally, I think that the lobby has succeeded on one front; making the situation very difficult to discuss for all but the most clued up or brave.

 This is where I fall down, still trying to learn about the history between Israel and Palestine, let alone how it's affecting international relationships and foreign policy.

That probably hasn't happened by accident.  World history and Israeli history covering the same period are like oil and water.   Oddly enough, it's Israeli historians that'll give you a better understanding, some of the most pro-Zionist historians provide some of the most damning stuff.  

These days, a comment on say, the Guardian saying that the Israelis thieved Palestine, wouldn't have much of a shelf-life, if it was allowed at all.   Yet, there are pro-Israeli historians that are proud of these moments, want them entered into a storied history.  

This malarkey started way back in the late 1800s.  It has had a huge effect on world events, probably the most significant being the Balfour Declaration.   Already a hugely organised political force in the US, adherents of political zionism negotiated that declaration in return for bringing the US into the war.   Following the end of the Great War, much of today's problems were created at the Paris Peace conference; political zionists had an influence there, particularly in the allocation of League of Nations Mandates.

We could have had a secular, united Syria there and then.   What we've had is nigh on a century of instability in the region and a disastrous situation for Palestinians, who have the choice of being a second class citizen on their own land or enjoying some semblance of rights somewhere else.   Their plight really should be the first item on the news every night.   It isn't, because until recently, we've had very little media plurality, coupled with the fact that our main broadcaster is so damn watched, listened to or read, who haven't been interested since Hutton.

Shame, if this anything to go by:-

 

 

Goatboy posted this 18 January 2017

pap posted this 3 weeks ago

Astonishing.

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pap posted this 3 weeks ago

Cheers @Cobham Saint.

My astonishment stems from the implications here.   Allow me to put some meat on the bones.

Since Israel's creation, the so-called Right of Return, allowing anyone of Jewish background to emigrate to the country has been controversial.   First, there is no corresponding rule for the Palestinian diaspora.  Second, it seemed to work more along racial lines than religious ones.   It was not until 1984, 46 years after the declaration of the State of Israel, that black Jews were admitted under the policy.

Within its tight framework, one thing that I will say for the Israelis is that before now, political views have not come into the entry requirements calculation.   Some of the most strident and articulate criticism of policy has come from journalists that live in the country, Southampton Uni alumnus Jonathan Cook, being a particularly good example.   He would undoubtedly fall into this net if he was trying to emigrate now.

It is voices like Cook, people hailing from places where political dissent is common, moving to a place where it'll now keep you out of the country, that have given the rest of us the everyman opinion on Israel.   

What happens when people like him shuffle off the mortal coil, and no-one else can move in?   It is already a highly propagandised state that uses its education system for political indoctrination.    What happens when there are virtually no competing voices?

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Cobham Saint posted this 3 weeks ago - Last edited 3 weeks ago

Thanks for the shout out @pap. To be honest there isn't anything I can argue with here.

This is unfortunately a country (of our design?)'which needs to take a good long hard look at itself but won't...

(edit: & the country needs to stop playing on the persecution of its diaspora in the past and look at what they are doing to the non Jewish population - ooops, is that an elephant in the room?)