The problem with the UK

Reasonably serious discussion
15

It was a very Barry-esque style post! (sort of intentionally)

Because the more I experience life, the more I can see day to day how this really is the issue in this country (not…what was it - integration, or multiculturalism…or something).

People who go to Oxbridge, are the people who make the decisions. There are jobs in this country, you just can’t get, if you’re not one of the Oxbridge elite (no matter how smart or accomplished you are), and usually those jobs are in positions of significant influence. Media, advertising, politics. And usually those kids are trained by private schools on how to ‘get in’, and come from privileged, cocooned backgrounds. The Home Counties being the dominant influence on our country scares the life out of me!

I won’t give my examples of genius kids, from estates, who didn’t get into Oxbridge because they didn’t pitch themselves quite right. But those examples are all around. And until these ridiculous barriers are broken, we will always live in a class society, rather than meritocracy.

Oh, and I don’t think sending a kid to private school, to try and compete in this class controlled world is the answer. I understand why people do that, but I think it exacerbates the problem.

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16

Haha - good one!!

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Yeah - all of that!

It’s news, because we live in a hopefully progressive world, and you would hope our academic institutions would recognise the impact of these issues and year on year, and make some progress.

That they’re not, is the news.

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Exactly.

19

I don’t agree with this - but I know I’m probably the only lefty person who doesn’t!

But I’ll at least explain my perspective.

Universities have always been elitest - for many years. Horrendously so in the 70s and 80s and earlier.

The opening up of universities has undoubtedly created a lot of micky taking about crap Polys, and the idea that a degree has been devalued. It also meant big issues with the funding of universities.

But I’d argue, a positive consequence (whether intended or not) is that whole new generations now have the expectation of going to university. Raised expectations in one generation, create even more expectations in the generation following. Working class kids who wouldn’t have been considered university potential, by career advisors, teachers, with fairly cliched and elitist ideas of what ‘university potential’ was, had an opportunity to take that first step. That has created a whole new idea of potential and possibility within working class families, and opened up the door, just a bit, to freedom of life expectation and ambition.

For me, even though I can understand the negative impact - that decision alone has done more to breakdown the destructive UK class system. Oxbridge is in my mind, without doubt, not catering for the very best.

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I would love there to be a different education system having done 2 degrees I hated both and uni isn’t for everyone.

I attempted to get into the foreign office one bit had to have a test in some civil service fast stream thing (it was a long time ago). Failed test. It was some of those puzzle type things. Apparently they’re the same tests public schools do. So they have the advantage again.

Additionally there was an article about how few ethnic minorities are getting into Oxbridge.

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No fucker wants to admit it but Bazza in the 3rd person is nearly always bang on the fucking money, its financial apratheid , applications are obviously from areas with better schools to attain the grades requiredto attend, also these families have the financial clout to send them.

And tot hink the whoppers on here want me to send my children to some of the worst state school in the Country to hold my beliefs, dear oh dear.

22

I’ll add my uncle went to Cambridge and my wife could have gone but opted for Sheffield, it doesn’t all have to be Oxbridge but the tie, handshake and rugby network will no doubt hellp you advanceyour career in grubby London.

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I disagree…its just increased the number of levels - employers still rate 'traditional universtities/rebricks over those with newly granted status, offering in many cases course that give false hopes… degrees that are unnecessary - where the entry routes to certain careers have always been more about getting in at the bottom. NOw it may beinteresting to do a degree on the music business or inTheatre managemnet, but they rarely offer routes into those career paths… That to me does these kids a diservice, especially given the debt burden that results.

Knowing the Oxbridge system first hand (via being married to a former Oxford college adminsions secretary) there is a LOT of bullshit writeten and believed. There is NO let up on the academic standard irrespective of which school you went to or how much your father may have donated to a college fund… the governance structure does not allow it. Specific entrance exams are no longer part of most admision systems which go by A level/IB and interview only.

Yes there is still a majority of kids that have been privatelyu educated and all thsi proves is that the quality of education they have been privalaged to get makes a difference - that difference is opportunity to have small classes and more attention for those bright enough to stand a chance.

The biggest difference seen at interview stage tends to be confidence - private schools kids tend to have more of its a focal point of their education… and that confidence lends its self well to an interview system.

I will ask the question again, what is wrong with having universities that are the best in the world say? That attract the biggest investment for research and as such generate innovation and cutting edge solutions that drive our industry? That will always mean the brightest go… To me what is more important is the opportunity to go there shoudl be open to all - that means quality of education and motivation to be educated needs to be available to all.

Yes there are countless exampls of bright kids who dont get in., or sruggle dto fit in… but I can give you loads of examples of kids from working class backgrounds who did and were very successful. There are arseholes everywhere, not just at Oxbridge.

Others such as Durham, St Andrews etc also have a good proprtion of privately educated kids… but again have high academic standards that are the only admission criteria…

I just think we should be doing all we can to get a) better access to betetr and more consistent standards in education (driven by resources in most cases) so that any remianing access barriers to the best universities are finally driven out. Whilst folkskeep believing some of the BS, we are just perpetuating the myths and the reverse snobbery.

Unserprizingly, the head of European Consuting at the firm I work for went to University College, Oxford between 87-91. He went to a secondary modern in Cardiff and was the first in his family to go to university, is not a tory, or a pratt, just a decent honest bloke… albeit Welsh… That is the way barriers are broken down, not by getting more working class kids to do media studies, IMHO.

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"just a decent honest bloke… albeit Welsh… " :astonished:

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25

And handshakes on golfcourses and masonic lodges, they go far far further than a general application.

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:lou_wink_2:

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Racist :laughing:

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Fuck my typing is bad…

29

Not to want to rake over old ground, but all the evidence suggests that kids going to these very posh schools are tutored to shit, achieve spectacularly at A Levels, then fall behind at the undergraduate level, which involves a lot more independent enterprise, something that state school educated kids tend to do better at, perhaps out of necessity.

Academic standards are a smokescreen which gives the veneer of equality without really addressing the inherent inequalities that prevent so many kids from achieving them. They focus on outcomes alone, not how those outcomes were achieved.

The schools providing the best outcomes and the most entrants to Oxbridge usually have the most resources State schools, never in rude health financially during much of my living memory, are being cut year on year now, with class sizes on the increase, and tuition fees a reality for anyone not rocking the cash up front.

If we had a level playing field, I’d have no issue with it. The playing field is far from level. Rich kids slide straight from Eton into Oxbridge into establishment positions so easily you assume they’re not playing on a field at all, rather in a waterpark, zooming down a flume. For poorer kids it’s more like Nomansland.

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30

You mean that dodgy village on the way to Salisbury?

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Young Adult #1 has come across people from places like Eton and Rugby in her 1st term at Exeter. She said most are right bellends who have a sense of entitlement and play the big “I am” but are actually little infant boys when it comes to the serious stuff of socialising / partying.

I’m sure their mothers love them.

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32

We see a lot of this misinformation and cliche about this supject all the time - sweeping generalisations as if all who go to Eton end up at Oxbridge… not actually factually correct but suitably misleading if looking to score a point… No one suggests that there should not be equality of opportunity. Appropriate resources to ALL schools. BUT many who go to state schools get additional tuition paid for by parents and grandparents to help with difficult subjects or to help with university access… should we criticise this as well? Its the reason many get so fucked off with cliched socialism… its an easy target and one which is as misguided as it is familiar… because unless we all want to embrace a true communist equality, there will always be folks who have more cash than other and will chose to spend it how they wish…

Pap, you talk about kids being assesed on the best outcomes, not on the conditions in which those outcomes were achieved… that is also not strictly true with respect to the admissions process and policy, although that comes with its own problems…

You also do the politicians trick of weaving in two seperate issues, that although related should be looked at seperately. That of education spending on state schools being cut year on year… that is obviously a hideious state of affairs and successive Governments should be ashamed on not putting education in schools as THE priority… but that is a separate issue from university admissions policy. And whilst its true that there are a disproportionate number of privately educated kids at top universities, the numbers of elite public school etonians taking up places on PPE courses is modest when looked at as a whole.

Its also how you present these ‘facts’ - Do more go to Oxbridge and other top universities because they are rich and privately educated… something that is nicely politically attractive for the old school left, or do we acknolwedge that more get in from these schools because they have had better teaching, better resources? Insititutions have not been giving out places to kids just because of their certain schools for a long time.

Finally, you look to suggest that many from private schools do worse at university than state school kids… no idea, but when I went to university, a univesrity that had its fair share of those from private schools - its was only the wankers from both sides who in their prejudices and snobbishness failed to integrate in to a single bunch of stutent scrotes… As to academic success whilst there, this had more to do with how you dedicated yourself to study v getting pissed and laid and fuck all to do with where you got your a levels or what grades you got. More recently, academic success has increase dramatically as folks realise they better get on with it given the debt burden they may have… and this will probably account why you see some data on state school kids now doing better, they have to focus. The private school kids dont feel that debt burden and can continue to be ‘free’ as we all used be with respect to study. The fear of debt being the driver here, not that the intellectual abilty of kids form one side of the system or the other. You like assuming causational effects rather a lot I notice…

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Private education is no more than buying success and should be banned in any democracy that claims to believe in merit(charitable status? Fuck off). There really is no justifiable defence of a system set up to divide, purely based on parents wealth.

The argument about funding of state schools is another convenient lie(only a neo con can justify using this). Get involved in forcing change, because going the other way only helps destroy the state system(give yourselves a pat on the back, up holders of the class system).

Five schools send more pupils to Oxford and Cambridge every year than two thousand other schools. To say it’s not a fixed system is delusional.

Look how good just one of them does.

Over the past thirty years some 60-100 boys have made successful applications to Oxbridge each year.

https://www.google.co.uk/url?q=http://www.etoncollege.com/Universities.aspx&sa=U&ved=0ahUKEwjuhuTL-4PXAhWKK1AKHbcOCy8QFggNMAE&usg=AOvVaw1S-EDl-0AGHGoqgeA4k2_J

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34

Is the problem with the UK the higher educational system or is it more than that? I have one sprig in Brighton Uni, one in Glasgow and the third will probably go to Brighton next year. They are all very happy with their lot and don’t fret about not going to Oxbridge. For me the main problem with this country is the Little Englander attitude that still prevails despite decades of us being a second rate country. The output of Eton, Oxford, Cambridge etc is enough to keep this arrogant and delusional attitude going. It has something to do with an island mentality. Between them, the Channel, the Atlantic Ocean and the North Sea have ensured that, to use a Barryism, inbred tribalism continues to dictate the mindset of many. Whatever you think of Brexit, we have taken a massive backward step that has emboldened the Little Englanders to come out of the woodwork and will set this country back years. There are hopeful signs that the young generation are not happy and perhaps they will manage to turn things around. But they face an uphill struggle as long as there are people who misunderstand what the Great in Great Britain actually means.