The problem with the UK

We see a lot of this misinformation and cliche about this supject all the time - sweeping generalisations as if all who go to Eton end up at Oxbridge… not actually factually correct but suitably misleading if looking to score a point… No one suggests that there should not be equality of opportunity. Appropriate resources to ALL schools. BUT many who go to state schools get additional tuition paid for by parents and grandparents to help with difficult subjects or to help with university access… should we criticise this as well? Its the reason many get so fucked off with cliched socialism… its an easy target and one which is as misguided as it is familiar… because unless we all want to embrace a true communist equality, there will always be folks who have more cash than other and will chose to spend it how they wish…

Pap, you talk about kids being assesed on the best outcomes, not on the conditions in which those outcomes were achieved… that is also not strictly true with respect to the admissions process and policy, although that comes with its own problems…

You also do the politicians trick of weaving in two seperate issues, that although related should be looked at seperately. That of education spending on state schools being cut year on year… that is obviously a hideious state of affairs and successive Governments should be ashamed on not putting education in schools as THE priority… but that is a separate issue from university admissions policy. And whilst its true that there are a disproportionate number of privately educated kids at top universities, the numbers of elite public school etonians taking up places on PPE courses is modest when looked at as a whole.

Its also how you present these ‘facts’ - Do more go to Oxbridge and other top universities because they are rich and privately educated… something that is nicely politically attractive for the old school left, or do we acknolwedge that more get in from these schools because they have had better teaching, better resources? Insititutions have not been giving out places to kids just because of their certain schools for a long time.

Finally, you look to suggest that many from private schools do worse at university than state school kids… no idea, but when I went to university, a univesrity that had its fair share of those from private schools - its was only the wankers from both sides who in their prejudices and snobbishness failed to integrate in to a single bunch of stutent scrotes… As to academic success whilst there, this had more to do with how you dedicated yourself to study v getting pissed and laid and fuck all to do with where you got your a levels or what grades you got. More recently, academic success has increase dramatically as folks realise they better get on with it given the debt burden they may have… and this will probably account why you see some data on state school kids now doing better, they have to focus. The private school kids dont feel that debt burden and can continue to be ‘free’ as we all used be with respect to study. The fear of debt being the driver here, not that the intellectual abilty of kids form one side of the system or the other. You like assuming causational effects rather a lot I notice…

Private education is no more than buying success and should be banned in any democracy that claims to believe in merit(charitable status? Fuck off). There really is no justifiable defence of a system set up to divide, purely based on parents wealth.

The argument about funding of state schools is another convenient lie(only a neo con can justify using this). Get involved in forcing change, because going the other way only helps destroy the state system(give yourselves a pat on the back, up holders of the class system).

Five schools send more pupils to Oxford and Cambridge every year than two thousand other schools. To say it’s not a fixed system is delusional.

Look how good just one of them does.

Over the past thirty years some 60-100 boys have made successful applications to Oxbridge each year.

https://www.google.co.uk/url?q=http://www.etoncollege.com/Universities.aspx&sa=U&ved=0ahUKEwjuhuTL-4PXAhWKK1AKHbcOCy8QFggNMAE&usg=AOvVaw1S-EDl-0AGHGoqgeA4k2_J

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Is the problem with the UK the higher educational system or is it more than that? I have one sprig in Brighton Uni, one in Glasgow and the third will probably go to Brighton next year. They are all very happy with their lot and don’t fret about not going to Oxbridge. For me the main problem with this country is the Little Englander attitude that still prevails despite decades of us being a second rate country. The output of Eton, Oxford, Cambridge etc is enough to keep this arrogant and delusional attitude going. It has something to do with an island mentality. Between them, the Channel, the Atlantic Ocean and the North Sea have ensured that, to use a Barryism, inbred tribalism continues to dictate the mindset of many. Whatever you think of Brexit, we have taken a massive backward step that has emboldened the Little Englanders to come out of the woodwork and will set this country back years. There are hopeful signs that the young generation are not happy and perhaps they will manage to turn things around. But they face an uphill struggle as long as there are people who misunderstand what the Great in Great Britain actually means.

It means “bigger in size” than the other bit of Britain at the time, Brittany in France.

This argument has been done to death… and there will never be agreement because there are too many assumptions and prejudices about it, and a willingness to make generalisations from small samples often with obvious agendas. So I will make one more statemnet and then bow out…

  1. Rich? Depends on how this is defined: Many parents chose to spend all their spare cash on their kid’s educations as opposed to socializing and holidays and other luxuries… that is a FACT, we chose to.

  2. Yes, we are much better off/lucky to have that ‘spare’ cash each month than many who do not have a choice - that is not my fault. I had no siver spoon either, but I was the first from my working class family to go to university… I have a decent job that pays well, but most in my income bracket would chose to save, or have hols… its not a bracket where we can 'have it all. I am sure Red Pap will say ''how dare I have this money and then chose to spendit on my choices… ’ but you know what, fuck off because I do NOT need to apologise for my choices.

  3. At university , I met many from all social backgrounds both privately and publically educated. There were utter twats from all walks of life and imho, what set decent folks apart was how they had been brought up, not the school they went to or the size of mummys purse. Making generalizations about kids from private schools all being stuck up mummys boys and girls with no idea about life is no less prejudicial, judgemental and ignorant as suggesting all kids at secondary moderns are schemy chavs whose parents don t give a fuck… its plain WRONG

  4. Yes there are 5-6 ‘Famous’ Public schools, like Eton, Harrow etc that have strong histroical links with certain Oxford and Cambridge colleges. Yes they are tutored to get in and there is still some collegiate level advantage to their entry… that is changing but its an institutional change that takes time. Class system? Whilst working class people keep voting Tory because the Sun tells them to, the class system is mainatined. Its not maintained because of private schools. If w ekeep voting for old etonians, old etonians will always be the ‘political elite’ … And I have never and will never vote for for those fuckers.

  5. Tutition fees are now putting off many that would otherwise have gone to universtity for the experience, as opposed for pure academic pursuit… and its why many from ‘poorer’ backgrounds are doing better now as the kids that make this choice are determined to max out the benefits. This is agood thing as ultimately its about what university shoudl be about… unlike in my day where until finals it was mostly about the more socially engaging aspects…

  6. It may well be classified as a ‘neo-con’ value to defend freedom of choice, and if folks want to stick a useless label on me becaus eof choices I make, well let them. I am comfortable with my choices for my child - and anyone who is going to make sweeping judgemnets over how she will perform at university (if she choses to go ) or how she views folks form all backgrounds can fuck off now. Its NO different from someone suggesting that your kids who wnet to state schools all swear form the age of 6, fight each other, steal, dont give a fuck about authority… blah blah and any other cliches I could suggest about ‘poorer’ kids - ITS ALL SHIT. there are complete and utter cunts from all backgrounds and social classes. end of. But when it comes to education, I made choices because of class sizes, and resources and facilties, not least after school clubs etc.

  7. Some say, ‘get involved’ or you are perpetuating the issue…Sorry, but that is again bullshit - the blame for lack of investment in state schools lies with those that never vote for anything better… and there are plenty of secret tories who prefer to have a lower tax burden than invest in our infrastructure and education to a realistic and correct level.

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You consider a sample of over 2000 schools a small sample? Wow.

I won’t bother with the rest. It’s Sunday and i really can’t be arsed(as you say, we have been here before).

It is a great example of why we are in such a mess though.

That brings back memories. The best part of forty years ago when the kids were small we used to go to a pub there called ‘The Cuckoo Inn’. It had a garden that they loved, full of animals, peacocks, pigs and chickens wandering in an out of the public bar etc. Served a decent pint of ale too as i recall. Anyone else ever go there?

Yes we’ve been there a few times but it’s not so rustic as it used to be…no wildlife in the bar. Still a good pint though.

Picture from the web…

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Having now taught a full half term in the private sector…it’s interesting observing how the other 7% live. Most of the kids are lovely (a few tools but mo more. as a proportion, than I taught in the state sector). I’ve yet to teach anyone with the magnesium bright intelligence of some of those I came across in the state sector (admittedly the school I am currently at is not academically selective).

I would say that if your child is average/low ability academically then your 35 grand a year might be well spent in the private sector with the smaller class sizes and lack of poor behaviour. Otherwise, the only obvious benefit is the amazing food on offer.

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:lou_surprised: Thank fuck its no where near that…

It’s a full boarding school. Some day pupils who pay around 22 grand. There are some families who have 3 siblings here. Fucking mad amount of money.

I think TCK, you hit on a valid point- most Private schools are not selective… but offer scholarships and bursuries for the brighter few. Wat appeals t me is teh gretaer freedom on the Curriculum (IB instaed of Alevels etc) and real emphasis on the arts outside of classroom - focus on building confidence and the resources that thsoe extra ££ pay for. To get all schools to the same levels of reources would require a 3x increase in educational funding sothat all schools were funded to a level of approx £12k per year per student… whilst there is no political will to tax us to spend that sort pon money on education then I have no hesitation in spending the money we could shove in the bank for a decent retirement on my daughters education as its best local school… She may waste it… who knows, but as a parent, I will do waht I can to try and get her on a reasonable path…

Aside from some obvious pupil cliches that are fulfilled (one minor royal and several members of aristocratic families on the roll call) the number of foreign students (quite a few Chinese and a surprising number of Spanish kids) is interesting. It’s where a lot of independent schools now focus their recruitment energies - to the extent that many are now opening schools in the Far East as additional income streams. As far as homegrown students are concerned the majority are children of high earning professionals = accountants, chartered surveyors, architects…that kind of thing.

Oh…and the teaching is definitely not better. Indeed some of the teachers wouldn’t/didn’t last 5 minutes in the state sector. I do have time to do my job ‘properly’ though - without killing myself- which is really fucking nice.

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Like any school you need to do your homework on what is actually achieved re academic standards - we chose the local independent as it had the best results at IB in Scotland. As you say, quite an international flavour in part because it attracts many kids from the international academic staff at the local university. That diverse cultural mix is also appealing. My daughter also plays with and is friends with the local kids where we live so gets exposed to a good cross section of backgrounds and social mix.

There are shit teachers everywhere, and as I say it’s why parents do their homework - some try and move home to fit in a catchment or start going to mass!

I’ll never be convinced, AG. My cumulative and entirely subjective view from my own life experiences of privately educated kids is not top. As I’ve recounted before, I’ve got one mate who blames his dad for not being richer, and believes a lack of private education has held him back. My view is its not that, and that I’d be dealing with a man of comparable ability to the one I know, except the privately educated version would probably moan about being deprived of a state education.

In most cases, it’s simply buying short term success, like a shortarse wearing Cuban heels or Derek Smalls sticking a foil wrapped cucumber down a trouser leg.

A much held rather cliched and stereotypical POV… Imho… I can of course only base that on my personal experience of kids from both sides of the educational divide- and there are wonderful folks, average folks and complete cunts from All walksof life. School does not fuck up children, parents have a much bigger impact as with all things.

Your opinion is a rather blinkered and prejudiced in my opinion.

There is No such thing as short term success - there is only parents looking to try and give their kids a reasonable start and see what happens - you won’t be convinced because you disagree with the principle irrespective of any rational debate - fair enough but you are better sticking to your principles than suggesting all independent school educate do kids are somehow all like the twats you seem to have met. They are not and to suggest so indicates a prejudice

And there we agree. I always knew we’d have to make up any educational deficiencies at school with the collective efforts of myself and the missus at home. That has largely happened.

What we didn’t have to do was keep the kids wrapped in cultural cotton wool for the formative years of their lives.

… the point is Pap, they are not just because they a attend an independent school if parents don’t wish them to be… and whilst some do, most that I know don’t - many have siblings at state schools, the division being due to educational need, most have friends outside of school as well… I just think you view is based on a reasoned principle but distorted by a prejudiced based on a few isolated examples…

Sutton Trust calls for universities to make their’contextualised admissions’ clearer

I work at a Russell Group university and had no idea that we had contextualised admissions until our babysitter announced she had an offer of ABB for her course which would normally require AAA. This was because she was at a failing school for much of her secondary school life, and on free school meals for a time.

Irritatingly, rather than go to my university to do her degree (and by extension, be able to continue babysitting our kids) she went off to some dump in Wales (Cardiff) where I’m sure she will have a fantastic time (while selfishly robbing us of very convenient babysitting services).

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Heres a question for Pap & AG. Down here there are no state schools for expats so i had to bleed myself dry to put my kids through school then Uni.

The fees here are high yet you mention £12k a year as being needed in a state system?

Which is what many pay here for private.

Also when my kids went back to UK all of them had a higher EQ and were at least 6 months academically ahead of UK Schooled kids.

The only difference I could see is our facilities were better but disposable stuff - books field trips eta were worse. I also thought that the only real difference here was the lack of a “political opinion” amongst teachers they taught the subjects not doctrine like I’d seen in my days.

Also here, bad teachers were simply fired.

Not saying it was perfect but all their classmates are now in good jobs around the world. Equally costs here have gone so high younger mates have no chance of paying the fees - SW Asians who make up the bulk of the population are finding it very hard to educate their kids even in Indian syllabus schools.

(My kids did IB’s so think that helped them be more rounded)