Guys, guys, guys… But Simon Cried! Why did he cry?
I get your point, but why should we risk 4 to 8 men in an environment where if it all goes south, it will be almost impossible to get them out of there. Even if we did send in a “snatch squad”, there is a very good chance that the targets would be killed as they sure as hell won’t come peacefully.
Unless you could guarentee a 95%+ chance of succes, I would opt for the missile everytime.
Originally posted by @CB-Saint
I get your point, but why should we risk 4 to 8 men in an environment where if it all goes south, it will be almost impossible to get them out of there. Even if we did send in a “snatch squad”, there is a very good chance that the targets would be killed as they sure as hell won’t come peacefully.
Unless you could guarentee a 95%+ chance of succes, I would opt for the missile everytime.
So because we don’t want to risk our own people, we’ll send in an unmanned drone, which has a 95% chance of killing innocent people, in the prosecution of “justice”?
Doesn’t wash with me at all, I’m afraid. Cowardice enabled by technology.
I know, it was very touching. A guy sang a song dedicted to a buddy he had just lost and Simon’s mum passed away a few weeks back. It clearly touched a nerve, bless him. So much so that the Sun thought it nearly as important a news story as blowing up terrorists so front page flagging!
We had a debate about drone strikes in our Pub Philosophy night a few months back. I think we agreed that terrorists had to be stopped before they actually killed anyone which makes it difficult if you want to keep the moral high ground and do everything properly through the courts. We accepted reluctantly that there are times when you need to take a life of lives to save more lives and that there were probably things done behind the scenes for the better good that we were better off not knowing about. We also felt that once these things became public knowledge the ballgame changed. Yep, I can see the hypocracy but in some ways, by coming out and saying he was taking decisions to kill British people abroad in public, the genie is out of the bottle and we have to deal with it as a nation. As long as terrorists were being quitely silenced by James Bond figures all was, sort of, ok. And as long as someone who wasnt in the Government’ like a High Court Judge, had seen the evidence in support of the strike and had agreed it. In an ideal world we would extract these people, they would go through a legal process and would spend the rest of their days in jail if found guilty. As much as we need protecting from terrorists, I feel uneasy about sending an unammned drone to blow some bloke to pieces who may be sitting next to a totally innocent individual just because Dave has been told the guy needs to be taken out by some military types. We all know how suspect militart intelligence can be!
This debate seems oddly abstracted from one important reality. The two individuals killed were part of a hyper-violent occupying force. They were British citizens terrorising Syrian citizens. One of them in particular has boasted about how many Syrian prisoners he’s killed. Now whatever attitude you take to the preconditions of ISIS, or the use of drones, this reality needs some recognition.
I’ve not seen this site linked on here but it’s an important one, because the people who run it risk their lives - and have been killed - in order to project to the outside world what is going on in Raqqa and elsewhere under ISIS.
Raqqa is being slaughtered silently
The reason I bring this up is that I’ve met a number of people from the Pakistani tribal areas, where drone strikes are a daily occurence, and they say pretty much the same thing: that they deplore the drone strikes and will tell the world that, but they’re also happy to see some of the violent Islamists wiped out because they’ve brought little but misery to people who actually live there.
If we, or more precisely the British government, really want to identify with the underdogs and the oppressed in all this, we should listen to these voices.
Originally posted by @Sadoldgit
As much as we need protecting from terrorists, I feel uneasy about sending an unammned drone to blow some bloke to pieces who may be sitting next to a totally innocent individual just because Dave has been told the guy needs to be taken out by some military types. We all know how suspect militart intelligence can be!
I mentioned it before, but that self-same intelligence pronounced one of these guys dead as a result of US drone strikes a while back.
That ought to indicate one thing right away. They don’t know how effective these strikes are, and if they don’t know who they killed last time out, how the hell can we assert that no innocents were killed during these strikes?
Woa!
Let’s not dismiss that valid point from Sim, why are we worrying about poverty, war and all that shit when we already have feeble distractions laid on to stop us asking these questions?
Look, there’s shiny stuff over there!
So cut all this educated shit and tell me more about who made Simon pretend to cry…quickly, before there’s another exciting distracting spat on Strictly Celebrity Bake-Off in the Attic-Factor - the one where people I’ve never heard of doing something I’m not interested in act out a scripted argument to further their own shallow and pointless careers while selling us their pathetic wares.
2 Likes
It is a very tricky one. Of course you dont want to risk lives but at the same time I see Paps point about the cowardice behind the use of drones, plus the lack of assurance that you will get the right guy. We play the moral high ground and if we are to be better than they are then we need to be prepared to put our necks on the line and do what it takes to actually BE better. if that means risking a snatch squad perhaps that it what we have to do? I get the point about them not coming quitely but again, something we need to overcome if we are going to be “better.” As much as I think that the beheading of captured prisoners in abhorrent, I also have a problem with blowing someone to atoms from an unmanned toy aeroplane.
2 Likes
Originally posted by @Furball
This debate seems oddly abstracted from one important reality. The two individuals killed were part of a hyper-violent occupying force. They were British citizens terrorising Syrian citizens. One of them in particular has boasted about how many Syrian prisoners he’s killed. Now whatever attitude you take to the preconditions of ISIS, or the use of drones, this reality needs some recognition.
Agreed. It’s not a reality that we run away from. My question is whether we abandon our principles to achieve that aim.
And do you know what? If this action was part of a coherent plan to do resolve the situation, ideally in conjunction with Middle Eastern partners, I’d have no issue with it. This is a situation that needs to be resolved. We can’t leave it.
I’ve not seen this site linked on here but it’s an important one, because the people who run it risk their lives - and have been killed - in order to project to the outside world what is going on in Raqqa and elsewhere under ISIS.
Raqqa is being slaughtered silently
The reason I bring this up is that I’ve met a number of people from the Pakistani tribal areas, where drone strikes are a daily occurence, and they say pretty much the same thing: that they deplore the drone strikes and will tell the world that, but they’re also happy to see some of the violent Islamists wiped out because they’ve brought little but misery to people who actually live there.
If we, or more precisely the British government, really want to identify with the underdogs and the oppressed in all this, we should listen to these voices.
No disagreement there, and thanks for adding your experiences concerning tribal areas of Pakistan. Those living with the daily reality of drone strikes are perhaps the most important voices to listen to.
It’s the cutting corners thing that bothers me, particularly as it creates more extremists in the long run, with genuine reasons to hate the west. I also worry about the cumulative effect of a lot of this legislation, and of course, the aforementioned precedent. No-one ever marched on Rome before Sulla, but many followed in his bloody footsteps.
Still, we’ve had a lot of precedents broken (and repeated) lately. I suppose one more to worry about isn’t a burden, but it’s going to be very uncomfortable for anyone that becomes the enemy du jour.
I’m very mixed on drones, if the intelligence like this (supposed) was correct excellent, it pyschologically destroys the enemy and surely thats a good thing? But if used incorrectly then its a publicity/recruitment bonaza for the enemy (they dont care about colateral damage only their assets like us) and even if it is used incorrectly it can be used as a tool for recuitment, why should we rid ourselves of a feared tool, we shouldn’t give the a ground war as they want that, give them something they dont like?
Obviously with your experience in the area it helps us to understand the point of view of those who are in harms way.
As an aside, have you ever met anyone of an ISIS or extremist persuasion?
Sorry, I don’t mean to trivialise a serious topic. But the drone discussion reminds me of a game (yes, I know I’m a monotous bore) that, whilst on a slightly different topic still, visualises quite well the issue of innocent lives being lost and the impact that has on recruitment.
September 12th (don’t think it works on Chrome).
On the topic itself, I don’t really know what on earth to say. My impression of the conflict (I may be wrong, please do correct me if so) is that what started as essentially a civil war has been hijacked by a terrorist group. The entire region seems an absolute mess, and way above any solution an idiot like I can comprehend. Fuck knows what the answer is, how do you take sides in a fight between terrorists and a despot? The people that lose out on a daily basis are the Syrian people. What is it, 4+m people displaced? It’s certainly not because they are all running for benefits, that’s f’sure.
1 Like
I suspect someone that has lost an innocent loved one to a drone strike is going to care a lot more about collaterral damage than you think. ISIS commanders might not give a fuck, I grant you - but the suddenly orphaned son, or the only child that used to have siblings? They’re going to be prime candidates for extremist recruiters somewhere along the line. Their recruiters will tell them that the West doesn’t give a fuck about protecting civilians and doesn’t even have the balls to send an actual human to do the killing. They would be right.
I think that you could equally argue that the way that Muslims have been demonised, covertly or overtly, has also provided some of the impetus for British born Muslims to travel to Syria. I think drone strikes are immoral. I’m not trying to condone any of it. I think anyone going to fight in Syria is an idiot, and probably doesn’t know who they’re really fighting for. My impression is that it has become too much of a dirty little proxy war, with far too many interests involved, for anyone to be sure of what they’re doing and why they’re doing it.
I still marvel at their 2014 ability to come up with even more sensational headlines than Israel managed during their assault on Gaza. When Israel were targeting UN schools, ISIS were beheading Christians and dominating the rolling coverage. Such an obviously porous organisation, which will seemingly admit anyone that says they’re devoted to the cause, is bound to attract foreign provocateurs.
Sadoldgit made a point over at the other place about this being very personal which chimes with me. If we want to deal with ISIS, let’s build bridges with the neighbouring countries with a view to destroying the collective, which we can all live with, I reckon. I’d much rather we did that, or even better, assemble a UN force, than engage in this sort of activity, which solves nowt, creates more problems, and is really more about the PR.
PR. Yep, Iron Dave Kicks Ass. Since when did covert operations become front page news? The last thing special operations want is a blaze of publicity. They want to keep a low profile and carry on with their work so that they can continue to be effective. Drones need direction and intel and I expect the job of tailing and reporting back on targets has been made more difficult due to the way that drone strikes are used to show that we are fighting back through the media. Since Desert Storm we have been fed with a lot of self congratulationary footage about how cool and effecient we have become at killing people. Politicians have not been slow to link themslves with the operations. Will drone strikes stop more people joining up? Given that many of them are willing to strap on a vest full of high explosive, the chance that they might meet their end by a missile they know nothing about will probably not phase them. They also give the extremists more reason to hate the Infidel. And as Pap said, we are not even man enough to be within rifle range when we pull our trigger. No matter how many successful drone strikes there are, there are more people prepared to take the place of those killed. We are not winning the war against terrorism, we are just prolonging it. At some point we (the West) are going to have to do things differently. As the old saying goes - if you do as you always do you will get what you always get.
Originally posted by @pap
Originally posted by @Barry-Sanchez
I’m very mixed on drones, if the intelligence like this (supposed) was correct excellent, it pyschologically destroys the enemy and surely thats a good thing? But if used incorrectly then its a publicity/recruitment bonaza for the enemy (they dont care about colateral damage only their assets like us) and even if it is used incorrectly it can be used as a tool for recuitment, why should we rid ourselves of a feared tool, we shouldn’t give the a ground war as they want that, give them something they dont like?
I suspect someone that has lost an innocent loved one to a drone strike is going to care a lot more about collaterral damage than you think. ISIS commanders might not give a fuck, I grant you - but the suddenly orphaned son, or the only child that used to have siblings? They’re going to be prime candidates for extremist recruiters somewhere along the line. Their recruiters will tell them that the West doesn’t give a fuck about protecting civilians and doesn’t even have the balls to send an actual human to do the killing. They would be right.
I think that you could equally argue that the way that Muslims have been demonised, covertly or overtly, has also provided some of the impetus for British born Muslims to travel to Syria. I think drone strikes are immoral. I’m not trying to condone any of it. I think anyone going to fight in Syria is an idiot, and probably doesn’t know who they’re really fighting for. My impression is that it has become too much of a dirty little proxy war, with far too many interests involved, for anyone to be sure of what they’re doing and why they’re doing it.
I still marvel at their 2014 ability to come up with even more sensational headlines than Israel managed during their assault on Gaza. When Israel were targeting UN schools, ISIS were beheading Christians and dominating the rolling coverage. Such an obviously porous organisation, which will seemingly admit anyone that says they’re devoted to the cause, is bound to attract foreign provocateurs.
Sadoldgit made a point over at the other place about this being very personal which chimes with me. If we want to deal with ISIS, let’s build bridges with the neighbouring countries with a view to destroying the collective, which we can all live with, I reckon. I’d much rather we did that, or even better, assemble a UN force, than engage in this sort of activity, which solves nowt, creates more problems, and is really more about the PR.
I’m all for building bridges but where do you start when the one who hates does not simply believe in anything you stand for? The majority of Muslims are peace loving but still religious none the less and unlike this in the main non believing non God fearing Country we couldn’t give a shite,about religion or are not offended by someone taking the piss out of it so can we have common ground if the Koran is taken word for word by fundementalists? Harmony can only come from integration and understanding, that even witht the peace loving Muslims is a long long way off when religion is EVERYTHING to them, we are passed that on the whole and we are better off for it.
I read yesterday 70% of Pakistani’s marry their cousins in this Country, is this true? If so that states an awful lot to me.
Something seems to be going on in Raqqa. Take a look at this twitter feed (it’s Abu Mohammed, the admin for Raqqa is being slaughtered silently, so it’s ‘safe’). His rather cryptic messages seem to imply something happening tonight or tomorrow - no idea what. Maybe just a bluff.
Originally posted by @Chertsey-Saint
Obviously with your experience in the area it helps us to understand the point of view of those who are in harms way.
As an aside, have you ever met anyone of an ISIS or extremist persuasion?
I’ve met a few, though not by design. I was in Swat Valley on two occasions shortly before it was overrun by the Pakistani Taliban and they were all about. But a good journalist friend of mine, whose adventures are so on the edge I’ve made a doc about him, has done rather better - he reported on the safe house used by the 7/7 bombers before they attacked. If only people had taken notice…
I’m interested in the way these people think and act, their interaction with others and whether these people are ‘evil’ in the way they would live there life if this opportunity wasn’t there for them.
Bizzarely for me I knew a very prominent civil rights QC, the Gibraltar case (death on the rock) was not unique but it did open a can of worms, the Bentley case, Loughall and one where a motorcyclist was carrying a bomb to its target to kill and maim, even Duggan.
What you have to do is prove there is intent to kill, if thats proven and the possible capture could lead to loss of life then the gloves are off,this has always gone on, wet jobs whether there is a gun or a drone are a part of life, it doesn’t mean to say I like it it means to say I understand it.
Proving intent is subjective and these people did nothing to prove their innocence did they, they flew out there, they have tried to recruit people into a murderous organisation and they denounced the Western way of life, its not perfect but are they? I think people need to get a reality check on Governments and their workings, they are not snow white and neither should they be, why? Because its a shithouse World.