You are a nawty boy Rally - very nawty indeed, but in a vortist sort of way
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Originally posted by @areloa-grandee
I am begining to think you are playing devils advocate now SOG. Are you seriously suggesting that it would more like art if she painted it rather than created an installation? Should Michelangelo have painted David instead? Principle is the same as you are suggesting one medium is more ‘art like’ than another. To ASSUME that an artist does not use the creative process on a piece is being rather disengenuous dont you think? Yet you are ‘happy’ to discuss the merits of Pollock or Warhol… Come on SOG…
I can’t say I think Emin’s bed is good, bad or whatever. I dont like it, but i wont dismiss it just because I dont have enough information on it. No experts would ever say ‘look at the materful way she has left a skidmark’ FFS SOG… not sure who you have heard talking about art, but its certainly no experts… getting close to WUM territory there SOG.
But how do you know what Tracy was thinking when she dragged her unmade bed into the Tate modern, she may have been having a joke on everyone by stating that “this represents the confusion that is in my life” when reality she wanted the stinking cum soaked sheets out of her house!!
It’s like being asked in English Lit “What was the author thinking when he wrote this peace” and then being told you’re wrong, clearly.
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Its bl… bla… black. black black black black BLACK!!! The whole world is black, black, full of despair. Death! Death! The birds have plucked out my eyes. Black !!! It leads to the chasm of lies.
Nah. Don’t like it.
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Who knows Trippy dude, who knows. But I am already ahead of you…go back through posts and see that I had using my vast brain, aleady preempted thois counter move… although I use SOGs Wickes bricks example…if she managed to get rid of her soiled sheets and exhiibit them, then surely the art is in the con. 
Farbtafel by Paul Klee 1930
Oil on canvas
Shit or interesting?
This is a very interesting and thought-provoking thread, imo.
Whilst I empathise with the views of ExTrader and others, I do think that Cracked Rib has made some very interesting points, especially regarding the importance of exploring what the artist is attempting to say.
This summer I was fortunate enough to be given a one-to-one tour by the head-tutor of an art college displaying some of their students’ work, as well as being presented with the opportunity to talk to the students about their work, and I must say that I was much more appreciative of their work than if I’d just been viewing it in isolation, so to speak.
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White Relief (second version) - Ben Nicholson 1936
Card on card
Shit or interesting?
Saturn devouring his son - Francisco Goya c1820
Oil directy onto wall of his house
Shit or interesting or mad bastard?
I am not trying to be a clever smartarse or patronise (even if it comes across that way) - but I used to be so cynical about all the arty farty stuf…being a scientist and all… and if it was not pretty much paint on canvas… I was very dismissive of anything I would not happily hang in my living room. Nice bit of Renoir, Matisse or Van Gogh, no problem… anything else and it was either too old and dull or too modern and not art… but Mrs CR being into all this art stuff, tried to teach me a few things… and you know what? there was a lot of truth in what she said… most of it very interesting (even the stuff that weren’t I had to feign interest in as it was Mrs CR doing the talking…) All I am trying to do is encourage a bit of more open mindedness when thinking about it. No worries if you still think any of the above is shit… but please wait until after you have explored all the possibilties…why? because you might find you find it interesting and how can that be a bad thing?
PS. I find plenty of art shit…because IMHO its shit art, but its still art… not that my opinion counts for much, but you know what I mean 
PPS. SOG. I love you man. 
I fully understand where you are coming from because its where I was and in some instance still do come from… have to remind myself constantly that unless I dig a bit deeper, I wont get any idea about some of the stuff Mr CR shows me… in a lot of cases I still walk away thinking its… er well… are you sure? … but in some, I come away thinking that its very clever , and much more emotive than my first reaction. To me that is the the great thing about art.
Originally posted by @areloa-grandee
I am begining to think you are playing devils advocate now SOG. Are you seriously suggesting that it would more like art if she painted it rather than created an installation? Should Michelangelo have painted David instead? Principle is the same as you are suggesting one medium is more ‘art like’ than another. To ASSUME that an artist does not use the creative process on a piece is being rather disengenuous dont you think? Yet you are ‘happy’ to discuss the merits of Pollock or Warhol… Come on SOG…
I can’t say I think Emin’s bed is good, bad or whatever. I dont like it, but i wont dismiss it just because I dont have enough information on it. No experts would ever say ‘look at the materful way she has left a skidmark’ FFS SOG… not sure who you have heard talking about art, but its certainly no experts… getting close to WUM territory there SOG.
Yes, to me it would be art if she had expressed her feelings by painting them rather than just dragging her bed along. Michelangelo sculpted David did he not? He didnt pitch up with his manky sheets. She didnt make her bed (geddit). If I pitched up at the Tate Modern with my bed and crusty sheets they would (rightly) kick me out. Why is Tracey Ermin’s unmade bed be ART and mine just a bed with crusty sheets? The skidmark remarks were just tongue in cheek comments but I am sure you get my drift.
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It is not shit and I could see this as a nice tile configeration in kitchen tiles!
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Originally posted by @areloa-grandee
Satan devouring his son - Francisco Goya c1820
Oil directy onto wall of his house
Shit or interesting or mad bastard?
I like this but I wouldnt hang it on my wall.
I have a sign on my wall that says “If You Are Waiting For A Sigh This is IT” and I prefer that.
Meh, I prefered the first version.
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Originally posted by @Sadoldgit
Originally posted by @areloa-grandee
I am begining to think you are playing devils advocate now SOG. Are you seriously suggesting that it would more like art if she painted it rather than created an installation? Should Michelangelo have painted David instead? Principle is the same as you are suggesting one medium is more ‘art like’ than another. To ASSUME that an artist does not use the creative process on a piece is being rather disengenuous dont you think? Yet you are ‘happy’ to discuss the merits of Pollock or Warhol… Come on SOG…
I can’t say I think Emin’s bed is good, bad or whatever. I dont like it, but i wont dismiss it just because I dont have enough information on it. No experts would ever say ‘look at the materful way she has left a skidmark’ FFS SOG… not sure who you have heard talking about art, but its certainly no experts… getting close to WUM territory there SOG.
Yes, to me it would be art if she had expressed her feelings by painting them rather than just dragging her bed along. Michelangelo sculpted David did he not? He didnt pitch up with his manky sheets. She didnt make her bed (geddit). If I pitched up at the Tate Modern with my bed and crusty sheets they would (rightly) kick me out. Why is Tracey Ermin’s unmade bed be ART and mine just a bed with crusty sheets? The skidmark remarks were just tongue in cheek comments but I am sure you get my drift.
Think that is a great question and maybe the fundemental one in the debate. Sadly, I am not qualified to provide a decent and effective answer. I can only offer my opinion which is ‘unqualified’. To me its because of intent. Emin will have (I know its difficult to believe) considered making a point/statement first. She will have thought about a particular message and only then considered how she might communicate it. The medium is a choice, a mere vehicle, but like all creative people, the chosen medium needs to be unique, otherwise what differentiates you? Its the same with poetry or lyrics or music… you need originality to stand out. Write a song like Dylan, write lyrics like Dylan and no matter how good the song, folks will just say you are copying Dylan… your message lost because folks cant see past the fact its so similar to what has gone before. It’s why art today is far removed from traditional painting and sculpture.
The choice of funiture and stained bed clothes may not be appealing to you, fair enough (its not appealing to me either), but its just the medium she has chosen to represent her thoughts.The art is in conveying those emotions, the time in her chaotic life… not in the crusty sheets if you see what I mean? This is also what I mean about how art is not ‘HIGH BROW’ its mostly very simple - a theme, a thought, an emotion, a statement or sometimes merely capturing a moment of light on a landscape, or the beauty in a face in a portrait (altough plenty of these were far more political than mere representation) - we dont need to always like the result, but surely its worth spending the time to see if we can at least appreciate the effort?
Right that is it - too much time spent on this today - must go back to trying and failing to be be funny.
PPPS. he Klee I find amazing, but will never have the $1million or so it would take to own it. 20 years ago, you could pick up that Nicholson relief for about £10k… now is several £100,000… so I will just have to and see it in the Tate St Ives. The Emin does not do it for me, and would anyone other than a mad bastard Goya want that image on their wall? (although considered a masterpiece)
That’s interesting - There is a pretty famous Scottish artist who died in 2012 called John Bellany. His early work seems to recollect Goya like images - but as he developed, he brought in more colour and eveolved to a very distinct style. Has plenty of work in tehe National Gallery
This image is form his early work - called Allegory form 1964
This next is more recent ‘Premonition’ from c 1985
I love his stuff.
…but sadly cant afford it