The papers have reported that David Cameron has ordered drone strikes on British ISIS fighters in a measure that he terms “self-defence”. There’s a lot to unpick here, not least the fact that we are treading where Obama has been walking for a couple of years; in the land without due process and extrajudicial killing. Dangerous precedents are being set and hugely irresponsible language is being used, such as the “self-defence” thing (really, guys?).
I had intiniki all up in my Facebook messenger shit this morning, informing me that this existed.
Personally, I think this is going to create more problems than it solves. Already has, probably. Drone strikes attract a notoriously high rate of collateral damage. We may have created more extremists in this action than the strikes killed, both here and abroad.
Most of all though, I just find the official implication that British citizens can be killed just because the PM says they can to be very disturbing. I think we’ve always known that it goes on, but a public declaration like this establishes a sorry precedent.
Had terrorists been quietly executed on some foreign shore and we didn’t know about it there was probably no issue in many people’s minds.
But as soon as you start bungling or revealing details of slightly dodgy operations you are asking for trouble.
Especially when even the secret missions that really need doing for homeland security rely on the integrity, judgement and honesty of all those taking part…
Before you know it you have secret depts doing whatever they think is best for us, rather than having those old fashioned trials and convictions that we used to do.
Don’t get me wrong, I say find Osama Bin Laden and shoot him in the face, it’s way easier than trying to extadite him but there’s a limit.
The above looks like a press release to show Cameron to be strong and decisive rather than the dithering idiot who was left looking bewildered when a dead child washed up.
It’s all spin, but it does damage internationally.
Problem is, all these drone strikes have been a major factor in turning a lot of people in that region against the West and they’ve allowed radical groups like ISIS etc to capitalise on this anger and disillusionment. This is an interesting article on the subject which shows how the extremist machine exploits this;
Pandering to the “Somethig must be done about…” mentality of the British people got Cameron into this mess in the first place.
That first vote to bomnb Syria was always flawed, (as much evidence existed to show it was a ploy by opposition in Syria to draw the West into the fight as that he ordered it) yet they pushed through a vote, lost and mow he has gone and done it anyway.
Look, those TRAITORS deserved it, in fact it was probably too quick & painless for my liking, BUT The West has been in a mess over their Middle East policy for decades (because they tended to only listen to 2 parties here)
The REALPOLITIK is what is going to hurt Cameron. Not these drone strikes, but that the floods of refugees will keep coming UNTIL Cameron gets his people to sit down with Putin, Iran and Bashar.
A deal needs to be done, Bashar needs to destroy Isis with a global coalition and then needs TIME to hand over power before being retired to a Dacha on the Volga or a Palace on the beach in Iran. THAT will be the inconvenient truth and the step too far for the Press, People and Law Courts.
But it is the only answer, because Drone Strikes, No Fly, Zones simply will not work. There are still over a million people lliving safely in Damascus because Bahsar’s foces can strike at forces trying to advance into missile range of the City. No fly? No air support for those defending the only fragment of normality in the country.
Oh and ONCE Bashar is in his retirement home, THEN the West can send one of Rallyboys dark force teams to take him out as he deserves
Whilst I don’t like the Sun rhetoric, I have absolutely no qualms with what has happened. If these people are definately recruiting for ISIS and there is no way other way of getting at them to stop it, then given what ISIS stand for and do, a hellfire missile through the bedroom window is fair justice.
Very difficult one for me. They posed a significant risk to us, and others by being alive. I don’t believe that the wrong thing has been done. I however think it gives more of an opportunity for others to be turned. Fingers crossed there was no innocent collateral damage involved. Find the Sun headline very distasteful, as ever.
What is becoming more patently clear is that we need a global coalition to remove and eradicate ISIS.
Very difficult one for me. They posed a significant risk to us, and others by being alive.
Did they? I haven’t really seen any evidence that they were a bigger threat than anyone else in the region. One of them was announced dead a couple of months ago before being announced dead again on Tuesday. If their intel was that crap at the time, you have to wonder how good it is when they say these people were an imminent threat to the UK. People around them, maybe. Here? Doubtful,
I don’t believe that the wrong thing has been done. I however think it gives more of an opportunity for others to be turned. Fingers crossed there was no innocent collateral damage involved. Find the Sun headline very distasteful, as ever.
We’ve decided that we can just kill British citizens if the PM says that’s okay. We’re British citizens, so that is slightly worrying.
What is becoming more patently clear is that we need a global coalition to remove and eradicate ISIS.
Agree there, but I think the bulk of the forces need to be the people around them.
The increase of ISIS in any region creates a threat to our national security and British Cittizens at home and abroad. As you’ve said above, the PM has always been able to say whether or not a British citizen can be killed. It’s not like the genocide that occured after the dodgy dossier. I suppose I don’t find it worrying because of the fact that those that are given the thumbs down will pose a threat to this country, it’s inhabitants or law-abiding British citizens worldwide.
The increase of ISIS in any region creates a threat to our national security and British Cittizens at home and abroad.
How? How am I more threatened by extremists leaving this country and going to fight over there? We may as well simplify and say that the existence of bad people is a threat to our national security. Does the existence of bad people allow us to ditch due process? Those people up in Crown Court are probably bad people.
This was a ham-fisted attempt at PR, a desperate attempt to be seen to be doing something. The only lasting effect of note is more permanent rights taken from British citizens ( because a few of them have decided to fight for ISIS ).
Whatever happened to the unbending values of democracy, eh? Are we that fucking frightened of what a few people might do that we cross the line on behalf of every British citizen? Are you scared? I lived through the 1980s. Fuck them.
“They won’t change the way we live”
No, they didn’t. You did that, you cunts (addressed to warmongering politicians).
As you’ve said above, the PM has always been able to say whether or not a British citizen can be killed. It’s not like the genocide that occured after the dodgy dossier. I suppose I don’t find it worrying because of the fact that those that are given the thumbs down will pose a threat to this country, it’s inhabitants or law-abiding British citizens worldwide.
Not publicly. What I meant above is that we all know it goes on. We don’t even kill mass murderers in this country when convicted in a court of law. Capital punishment is reserved for treason, and even that requires a trial.
To break it down for you, the PM could order you killed and as long as he’s got a couple of propagandist media organisations on board, no-one will give a fuck. That’s why it’s important to remember your long term principles when making short-term decisions.
Surely it is not beyond the capabity of our special forces to take these people out so that we can give them a proper trial? We dont even have capital punishment for convicted murderers but apparently we do for people who may or may not be planning to kill someone under a “terrorist” banner.
How do we know that this is what they were planning to do? Because Dave tells us that is the case. I seem to remember another PM telling us all about weapons of mass destruction. It is not entirely beyond the relms of possibility that the mititary wanted these Brits taken out in order to try and scare off others.
It’s not about them leaving this country, it’s about the added recruitment, the increase in the number of ISIS militants that are intent on doing damage to the West. The example this is giving to impressionable lads in our country who may think that it looks cool, and start to plot within this country.
I’m well aware of what the government could do, but that doesn’t scare me, because I’m law-abiding. And you say no-one will give a fuck, look at the uproar created by this, the killing of two men who have gone to Syria to kill and maim citizens in the name of a warped interpretation of their religion? There will be inquiries into this, the same as there was into Iraq and the truth will come out (although the truth in this seems to be pretty cut and dried). That’s a bit different to the totalitarian Ray Bradbury-esque state you paint it out to be.
I expect most victims of the fascist states in the 1930s started out as law-abiding, but then the framework of law they lived under changed underneath them, making it illegal to say, be Jewish and own anything.
