This follows on to one of my favourite MRA (mens rights activists - yep, they are real) ‘arguments’.
It’s essentially:
Feminists should shut up about rape, because more men are raped in prison than women.
It may well be true. But such people seem, completely oblivious to the fact that the perpetrators in 99.9% of such offences are men.
Rape, sexual assault and harassment, much like violence and terrorism are Male problems. It’s fuck all to do with race.
EDIT: typo fixed.
Agreed, but Sarah Champion’s article singled out Pakistani’s as a specific problem regarding grooming and rape. As KRG points out below, it’s a man problem, race is fairly irrelevant to the issue.
Correct, and as you saw of my correction the proportion of rapists in 2012 who were Pakistani was 2.3%. The stats are in line with the population. The problem is there were over 1,500 of these incidents reported that year, not that 35 of them were by Pakistani men. Men’s attitudes are the problem, not their race.
She should have been more patriotic and supported our white British rapists.
We knew where we stood all those years ago before paedos had been invented and queers started touching everyone up and wanting rights.
I can’t wait to get out of the EU and leave all this filthy nonesense behind.
Much simpler times. It’s all so messed up and complicated now.
Ok, not often I weigh in in support of Bazza, but…
The issue that everyone seems to have to be so careful of is one of a culture of some Asian (not just Pakistani) males grooming, pimping and raping young (predominantly) white girls through an organised group.
That problem is there.
They are rapists.
They are Pakistani (largely)
It’s happening in the UK.
It should be discussed.
I haven’t read Sarah Champion’s article so perhaps that would explain why she was sacked (resigned), but what is wrong with saying that we have a particular and unusual roblem with rape in some Pakistani communities?
Please note that nothing I’ve written elther blames uniquely or disproportionately the British Pakistani community nor ignores the wider cause and perpetrators of rape in the UK (men generally).
Isn’t the issue that she gently implied that the Pakistani community is the only community that has an issue?
Had she highlighted that as a problem within the overall problem, it would have been fair comment.
Yeah she was prob trying to avoid saying Muslim or Asian or whatever cos she’d look like a Barry. The worst stories that I’ve seen* like that newcastle one where them 18 bros was groom 100 girls & pass them round for I imagine 1000+ rapes (wonder how that is recorded in rape stats?) I believe only a handful of them was actual Pakistani.
* And I respect Intiniki + what she says bout wider problem + blacks + whites what don’t make the Papers for Some Reason.
Bazza, you know how, if you start a thread, you get the option to click on a post as a ‘solution’? Well, I think you question is solved.
I should read the article first.
Ignore and say its a man’s problem not a cultural one is like saying the Catholic church isn’t culpable for the rape of children, tell someone to take a vow of chastity and then they have power over young boys? Of course there’ll be people who break their vow and rape? It’s not rocket science, a conservative culture in a liberal one will cause problems, lets talk about them all.
The liberals like to throw in colour, race, religion and culture to muddy the waters, culture and religion guys nothing more.
OK, this is what seems to have caused the problem for her:
Britain has a problem with British-Pakistani men raping and exploiting white girls.
“There. I said it. Does that make me a racist? Or am I just prepared to call out this horrifying problem for what it is?”
I’m not trying to be obtuse here, but her comments are fact.
Do you really think, by inference, she was suggesting that there is no other problem with rape in any other communities?
I don’t.
She went on…
"For too long we have ignored the race of these abusers and, worse, tried to cover it up. "No more. These people are predators and the common denominator is their ethnic heritage.
“We have to have grown-up conversations, however unpalatable, or in six months’ time we will be having this same scenario all over again.”
That’s pretty aggressive, and I can see an issue over the use of These People , but again I broadly support her arguement.
The problem that is unique* to the British Pakistani (more broadly Asian) community is men acting together in the organised grooming of young (and I mean young) white girls.
This issue needs to be discussed specifically for its unique characteristics, but, as others have said, also as part of a wider rape problem.
I believe that in a separate but accompanying piece Trevor Kavanagh described this as “the Muslim problem”.
I see his comments as wrong, dangerous and factually incorrect.
He should resign.
The reason I’m weighing in here is the reason the recently publicised systematic abuse went ignored for so long, wasn’t because we didn’t know not what was happening, we did, it was because we were overly sensitive to the ethnic background of the perpetrators.
That and the fact that police officers’ attitudes to young, white girls from deprived backgrounds seemed to be one of “they were probably asking for it”.
The reaction on this thread is exactly the reaction that led to the perpetrators avoiding prosecution for so long.
“You can’t say that!”
The issue was not one male abusing one female.
The issue was a group of men, who shared a common ethnic backgeound, organising the rape of young white girls.
Social workers (and I’d love to here the views of any professionals on here) struggled to tackle that issue because that is career ending if you get it wrong. Police didn’t want to touch the issue for the same reason.
So why is ethnic background important in discussing these cases and why should we not simply describe it as a male raping a female?
Because for some of those British Pakistani men, raping a Pakistani girl was abhorrent as they saw them in some confused way as pure when compared to immoral white girls.
This needs to be discussed, not shutdown.
*May be unique, may just be highly prevalent in those groups.
For the avoidance of doubt, I believe this to be a small problem (by percentage, not by impact) with some parts of some British Pakistani (and more broadly Asian) community. It has nothing to do with religion. But due to the reticence of some to tackle the issue, the problem could be enormous but undiscovered.
Nothing wrong in that at all, not one bit, the uncomfortable truth isn’t Muslim grooming gangs its the liberal guilt in trying to cover their arses, meanwhile girls are still classed as the problem as liberals don’t want to tackle cultural issues for fear of offence, awful people.
Nail on head. The problem is men - grooming - sexual assualt - rape. The common denominator being men. Not asian men. Men. When you start to compartmentailise you start to make the issue one of race, ethnicity or religion. The issue relates to men. Rape is rape. It is no worse if it is carried out by Asian men. Sexual harrassment goes on everywhere frquently. Much of it doesnt get reported. Most of the women I have spoken to over the years have experienced some form of sexual assualt. Few ever reported it. One person back in the &0s was raped at a music festival. She reported in to a policeman and he said “dressed like that, I am not surprised.” Ok, times have moved on and it is taken much more seriously now, but it is still going on. Yes, there is a problem in some areas with groups of asian men, but there is a much wider issue all over with men of all backgrounds. Barry kicks off because someone has resigned over an article about a group of asian guys but has he ever kicked off about the general number of rapes and sexual assaults in this country? Where is the outrage at the way some men still treat women in the 21st century? There is none which tells you a lot about Barry and gives the reason why this women’s article led to her resignation. The issue becomes about asian men, not about rape.
You can’t admit culture is part of the blame, you simply can’t bring yourself to say this flourished and was allowed to happen due to the culture of the people that did it and the people that wouldn’t take it on and investigate.
This is the real issue here.
How can it be that sex grooming underage white girls is part of Pakistan culture? How did they manage in Pakistan?
Yeah, if you take it to it’s conclusion, Saddo, that’s all true.
It typically boils down to an act by one sex against another (usually men against women).
So with that definition in your mind, set about fixing the problem.
“Hey all men, it’s wrong to rape”
“OK police officers, today in our efforts to stamp out organised rape I want you to focus on all men”
“OK social workers, today in our efforts to stamp out organised grooming, I want you to pay special attention to at risk children who interact with all men”
I hope you don’t mind me being flippant to make a point, but seeing the bigger picture and refusing to acknowledge the practices of certain people in certain communities will make our society responsible for the further abuse of children.
If the black gangs that exploit children that Intiniki mentioned are to be stopped, then some organisation that can reach those black people - community leaders, youth workers, etc. needs to step up.
If the British Pakistani and other Asian men that are grooming and exploiting these children are to be stopped then community leaders, sports personalities, imams, Sikh gurus and others need to step up.
The same is true of any organised societal group that we can identify by their proclivities or practices.
All rape is wrong.
Treating all rape as just rape is wrong.
It won’t expedite the efforts to stop it.
Is it worse if an Asian mans commits rape than a white man?
But that is not what she was saying.
She was basically saying that the authorities have overlooked the cases of gang grooming and rape that have gone on because of the fear of upsetting the “culture”.
I think people are reading too much into what she didn’t say!
I don’t get your point Bletch. How can rape be different? The law doesn’t differentiate between who carries it out and why. Serial rapists are just that, whether working in gangs or on their own.